Become the Leadership Coach That Leaders Want in Their Corner | Executive Coach Dan Freehling

The Leadership Coach That Leaders Want in Their Corner - Dan Freehling – TRANSCRIPTS

[Roger]

How do you know that you are firmly in the corner with them and you can tell them the thing that potentially gets you fired?

[Dan]

It's just really being in the moment present with them and I think both sides can feel when it's real. A lot of my coaching is I'm filtering everything they're saying and all of their body language and everything else into when are we actually getting to the real thing and until you're there, you're not really coaching, right? They're going to say a lot of stuff and then it's like, wait a second, that's a real thing.

Let's get into that.

[Roger]

Have you ever considered being a coach? Have you ever wondered what it takes to be a coach? What experiences and what skills you might need to be an effective coach?

For many people who have turned into great coaches, they had those same questions and even the same doubts at the beginning. But before you take the leap into coaching, wouldn't you like to know the answers of those questions? Welcome to What Do You Know To Be True.

This is where we explore superpowers and what it takes to become more of our possible selves. I'm your host, Roger Kastner. If you're ready, let's dive in.

Hey, Dan, thank you for joining me today. I'm excited for the conversation we're about to have. Roger, thanks so much for having me.

Likewise. A little while ago, you had me on your podcast, Forward-Looking Leadership, and I'm excited to learn more about your superpower of being in the corner for the kind of leader you want to have. What I know about you is that you are an org development consultant and an executive and career coach and a podcast host.

We have nothing in common. I don't know what we're going to talk about, but what else is important for us to know about you right away?

[Dan]

Nothing at all in common. We're kindred spirits, Roger. Yeah, I think this is something that I do professionally and have been fortunate enough to be able to take things I think about all the time in my personal life and things I discuss with friends and what I watch and read and listen to about how do organizations work, how does leadership work.

I was joking around with another podcast guest about both being fans of the Acquired podcast, which is about how businesses have grown over time. They have an amazing Trader Joe's episode. They have an amazing Coca-Cola episode.

It's something that I love thinking about, talking about, and I'm so excited to talk to you about it today.

[Roger]

Let's go ahead and talk a little bit about your podcast, Forward-Looking Leader. Tell us a little bit more about the mission of that podcast and your experience with it.

[Dan]

Forward-Looking Leadership started with talking to people I personally know who I think are really compelling leaders. I have this concept you mentioned of the kind of leaders you want in charge. These are people you kind of know it when you see it, of when you ask somebody who should be in charge of your organization, some coworker comes to mind, some leader from outside of the organization comes to mind.

These are the kind of people I want to profile on my podcast, which is, what do they know? Not necessarily what does whatever billionaire know about running their company that's on every other podcast in the world. This is really, what does my friend Steve, who recently sold his mental health and wellness companies in Wisconsin, think about leadership, think about organizational change, think about coaching?

It's just so much more interesting to me to hear from people like that than to hear from the latest leadership guru who's on every other podcast in the world. I try to go in depth with people. Your episode was a great case in point on nerding out about organizational development, nerding out about coaching and how you approach it differently than other coaches might, and all of your experience working in corporate America and working with teams on organizational change.

I just find that a lot more interesting personally, and I hope that listeners find that a lot more interesting than the kind of surface level, shiny PR kind of leadership podcast out there.

[Roger]

Again, another thing we have in common, when I started this podcast, I wanted to talk to ordinary people with extraordinary talent. When I would say that to guests, I would feel a little sheepish about like, oh, I just called them ordinary. But what I love about your tagline and your superpower of being in the corner of the kind of leader you want in charge, I'd love to hear a little bit more about the leader you would want in charge and about the whole superpower, about being in the corner of the leader you want to be in charge.

So tell us a little bit more about the superpower and the kind of leader that you want to be in charge.

[Dan]

This is something I've been thinking about it in terms of, you know, getting into people's inner circles, even more importantly, kind of being in their corner. So think of the kind of boxing coach metaphor where, you know, they're out there doing their thing, and they're the star of the show, and they're doing a very hard thing in the real world. And who do they turn to to get that kind of check in, get that kind of advice, get that kind of wisdom to have a thought partner?

And that's who I want to be in my business, is that for people who are out there doing this in their specific ways. The kind of leader you want in charge, again, is very much a subjective thing. It's very hard to quantify that in terms of exactly what it is.

In general, what I find with it is it's often somebody who is very sharp. You know, they're smart. They know what they're doing.

They can think strategically. They're also in it for the right reasons. So they generally have a real purpose, not one of these shiny purposes that is, you know, corporate speak for whatever anyone wants to be doing.

And then they find some purpose to back it into. But they're really genuinely purpose driven, genuinely mission driven, impact driven, whatever that looks like. And then just the way they engage with people, being genuinely kind, being caring, being compassionate, without being so much of that that it becomes performative or it becomes detriment to the way that they're leading.

Working with hundreds and hundreds of coaching clients, it does show up in a lot of different ways. No two clients are alike, but I hope that I'm always able to be there for people and be there for the kind of people who are out there and leading in this way.

[Roger]

There's this topic of leader burnout, which is coming to the front. For a while, it was about worker burnout. And then, you know, maybe the common element is humans under pressure, that everyone's subject to burnout for a little bit.

But when we think about, you know, what does it mean to be a leader? And how do you show up to be a leader? And that, you know, the concept of situational leadership, that every situation, every person requires something different.

That's really challenging. That's really tough. And I can see as a leader is trying to navigate these issues, having people in their corner becomes really powerful, really helpful.

And you are describing that it's what we get to experience and these various facets of the work that we do in common. But I'm curious, like who or what inspired you to have this superpower of being in the corner of the kind of leader that you want?

[Dan]

This is something that I think was the result of just naturally being given different leadership opportunities as, you know, growing up and taking these on. So, you know, everything from, you know, my middle school cross-country team to being a captain of that, all the way up to Model UN when I was in high school and college and kind of running these conferences. What I've slowly learned is through this and then through my now professional journey of leadership development, programming, of getting into coaching, is that my real strength is on that one-to-one, that individualization and being able to really click into the kind of things that leaders are facing, especially in economic downturns.

I think right now I'm doing a lot of career coaching with people, a lot of working with job seekers who I love working with. They're going through a very, very, very hard experience being actively on the job search, being unemployed, being laid off. We're forgetting a lot of times the people who are in leadership roles in times like this and how hard that can be to see so many people around you struggling and looking for work and you still needing to show up and lead and be there for your team and be there for your organization.

It can almost feel like a kind of Cadillac problem, right, of, you know, oh, I feel a little burned out as a leader but I still have a job and I'm still getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it so I shouldn't really have a problem. And it's just not the case. There's real, you know, psychological strain of being a leader in a challenging situation.

There's a lot that you can't talk about with your team, with anyone around you, with your own boss, with your own family too much. Oftentimes you don't want to load up, you know, your spouse or your parents or whoever else you're talking to in your family about all these leadership issues. And this is a it's something that's that's really kind of an unmet burden and unmet need.

And I think this is not frequently talked about part of why executive coaching is so important and is growing in popularity is that there's very few people who can A, understand what you're talking about from a strategic level and from an emotional level and B, want to make that space for you to to have those conversations about it and can be trusted to do that because, you know, oftentimes somebody's boss or co-worker can technically do this, even if badly, but it's not confidential, right? It's not neutral. It's not removed from the possibility that they hold something you say against you down the line.

And coaching just doesn't work at all if you're holding back anything at all, as you know, as a coach. And this is it's creating that that space for people to have these conversations.

[Roger]

When you're working with leaders today, who are struggling having that tension about who they feel like they are and who they feel like they need, what are you finding to be really effective in getting them to be a little bit more coherent and a little bit more aligned with those values that the role model that inspires them and the story that's going on in their head about who they should be?

[Dan]

What I try to work with on clients is what is the best of how you can show up as yourself as a leader? What are you already doing well? This is the strengths-based, the asset-based kind of an approach.

How do you dial these up to 11, right? If you're an amazing team leader and you're super well trusted among your team and you care about everyone and you know all their birthdays and you know all their kids' names and you know their pets names and you know all of this stuff, how do you not say, oh, I don't feel like that's what an executive should do, so I need to just do something else. I need to model what I see other executives doing.

No, instead, how do you really ratchet that up? I'm not a full strengths-based believer. I do think that there can be a point where there is a need to look at, are any of my deficits going to be really detrimental to what I need to be doing in this role, and is there a way to not necessarily focus on them but to focus on them enough to mitigate them as something that's going to get in your way?

It doesn't mean that you should have to become the kind of person with a three-ring binder, with color coding, and a calendar for every second of your day, but it's looking at what can I do to mitigate that.

[Roger]

Okay, you're showing us a little bit about what it's like to be in the corner with you, with that leader, whether it's coaching or whether it's consulting, and there's the strength-based piece of how do we get more of that, but then there's the thing that they're not good at, and it's actually costing them. It's getting them in the way. How do you have that conversation with them that really sort of does that deep tissue massage that gets to that point where they are able to address that issue?

[Dan]

Yeah, so I often find that people, at least the leaders I work with, actually tend to lead with the deficit, and it's often a matter of first bringing them over to the strength, right, and then working on building that out and getting that recognition going of what are we doing right and how do we keep doing that, and then it's coming back to the deficit and saying how do we not take this as an absolute moral failing that is going to be the reason that you can never lead and that you're not cut out to be a leader and that you shouldn't have this role to begin with and all of this kind of imposter syndrome stuff coming up, and instead it's calming it down, really. It's saying, okay, how do we take this not as a judgment of you, but as an opportunity to learn?

When you help people shift into this real learning framing, it changes everything, because then suddenly it's not beating yourself up for not already having something. It is saying, okay, now I know what I can focus on. I know what my goal is with this.

I know where I want this to get to, and then I know the kind of things that will start leading me in that direction, and let's take them one at a time and start doing them in practice, whether that's learning more about it, whether that's talking to people who are excellent at this and learning from them, whether that's listening to podcasts of people who excel at this kind of a space, and then putting it into practice, trying it out on a day-to-day basis.

This is an ongoing process. We say the learning happens in between the coaching sessions. It's not necessarily in the coaching session.

Trying it out, seeing what's working, seeing what's not, seeing how you're feeling about it, coming back and continuing to improve and refine, and it's like anything. It's like diet and exercise and all of that kind of stuff, where you know, it helps to do it along the way, even if it's not to your end state, right? It's always better to go for that extra run or lose that extra five pounds or whatever that looks like, even if you're not to your final goal, and it's the same thing with leadership, right?

It's better to be trying out different ways to work on your gaps and to be improving on them and to be continuing to really highlight your strengths all along the way, and it's better every single day that you do that.

[Roger]

I love the point you're bringing up about experimentation, and I think leaders, at least leaders I work with, they feel like they're always being watched, like everything is always being recorded, and therefore, experimentation practice doesn't feel like it's possible because if they make a mistake, it gets amplified. Now, we also know that we appreciate when leaders are authentic. We appreciate when leaders show up human.

We appreciate when leaders demonstrate how they're learning, and so there's this little bit of paradox of what we think a leader should be and what we actually appreciate in leaders, so I love this, you know, being able to reflect on what we're, you know, who are our role models, how do we practice in ways, and then the reflection becomes really important. The other thing that you mentioned in that response made me think about meaningful feedback and whether that's from, you know, from a client and a consultant or a coach and their leader that they're working with, or just even at work, this idea, you know, with our peers where we're talking about giving meaningful feedback and emphasizing, you know, you're not a bad person, but there's this thing that you could be doing differently and really focusing in the action and what they did, whether it's reinforcing it or the opportunity to build up capability and skill. Dan, what do you know to be true about your superpower of being in the corner of the kind of leaders that you charge?

[Dan]

So, I think you genuinely need to have their best interests in mind. By that, I mean both the soft side of that, both the wanting to be there and be supportive of people, and also the hard side of that, of needing to say the things that need to be said. I've been playing around with a concept of kind of peacetime and wartime coaching, and I don't love the, I don't love the kind of martial metaphors on this, but there's this kind of peacetime coaching that is the four hours of coaching tacked on to the end of the leadership course, and you're never going to see the client again, and it's like, okay, we're going to look at this assessment, and we're going to look at what you did in the course, and we're going to try to, you know, help you think about how you can show up differently as a leader.

That's a very different kind of coaching than wartime coaching, which is I've lost my job, and I need a new job, and I need to figure out how I navigate that, and how I go and do that, or my organization is in a position where we need to bring in more revenue, or we need to cut costs, or else we're going to go under, and everyone is going to lose their jobs, and we're not going to be able to deliver for our clients.

I think the really being in the corner for people necessitates actually bringing yourself to that second kind of coaching, being in real positions with real stakes, and removing yourself from the kind of coaching where it's nice to have, where it's something that's kind of just like added it and tacked on, because you can't really get to that same level of being in their corner for them when the stakes are not real, when they're not really ready to show up.

[Roger]

There are times when we're working with clients or working with our coaching clients where like the first couple conversations feel like peacetime coaching. It's getting to know each other and building credibility and trust, and then there's the opportunity to tell them when they have spinach in their teeth and they don't know it. It's actually preventing them from achieving the thing they're trying to achieve.

It's hurting them. How do you know that you are firmly in the corner with them and you can tell them the thing that potentially is going to offend them, potentially is going to make them angry, potentially gets you fired? How do you know you're in that position?

[Dan]

This is where building a really robust practice and having a strong business comes into play of not needing any individual client. It sounds like it's just a business decision, but it is fundamental to how you can show up when you don't actually need to keep them as a client and people can feel and sense that difference. What I find myself doing, now that you mention this, I've never really put words to this, but a lot of my coaching is I'm filtering everything they're saying and all of their body language and everything else into when are we actually getting to the real thing.

Until you're there, you're not really coaching. They're going to say a lot of stuff and then it's like, wait a second, that's a real thing. Let's get into that.

[Roger]

It made me think, I got the cool color background. It's like, could we somehow turn the background into a mood ring where it's like, oh, we just got real. Now we're in the orange zone or now we're in the red zone.

Okay, we're game on and it might take four or five sessions to get there.

[Dan]

You're so right. It's built up over time and with trust. People are also consciously or subconsciously watching you as the coach, as the client.

They're saying, is this person BSing me or is this real? Or are they being too harsh? Is it someone who comes in, like you said, guns blazing to the first session and wants to be the tough guy in the room and just says a bunch of stuff that's not grounded in what they're actually thinking or what they're actually saying.

There's an honesty, there's a stripping away of artifice, of performance, of even coaching rules. It's just really being in the moment present with them. I think both sides can feel when it's real.

[Roger]

What did you used to believe early on about your superpower that you've come to learn is not true?

[Dan]

I was of the mindset that you can't really coach an executive until you've been a CEO. What I've come to realize is that you have to have the experience to understand that situation. You have to have the intelligence and the knowledge to be able to understand and sit with them.

But the very important part is being a thought partner who can keep up with their strategic thinking, being an expert on the art and science of coaching, being able to go super deep with people when needed. Something I've been learning lately is being knowledgeable about the process that you're engaging in. There's a lot of coaches who will coach, they'll be career coaches, but they don't know a single thing about the job search.

And you need to really become as much of an expert as you can on how to approach these different kinds of things and to bring that knowledge and bring that expertise to the situation while holding it loosely. People want you to know about management and leadership and job seeking and all of these kinds of topics. And that kind of stuff is much more important than this is what I did and now I want to turn around and have you do it the way that I did it.

And there's a real credibility and a real quiet confidence that comes from being able to sit down with somebody and for them to fully trust that you have their best intentions. That's what's top of mind for you. And that all you're trying to do is get to the real issue with them and then help them sort it out, get to the bottom of it, get to the heart of it and decide how they want to proceed with that.

And that's the real power of this.

[Roger]

So with your superpower of being in the corner with the kind of leader that you want to have in charge, what do you do when you find out you're working with a leader and it's not the kind of leader you want in charge?

[Dan]

Most people who find their way to a situation like this have this in them. Again, to the point of the kind of organizationally mandated coaching, I think that's where you find some people who are not this. They have to do it.

It's a checkbox activity. Let's say that somebody does find their way to me. They know that I'm an independent coach.

They know that they're actively engaging with me. They don't have to do it. They want to work with me.

They've seen all my stuff. They know the way that I kind of do things. And then we start talking and it's not really clicking.

I like to have that conversation right away. And this is something I've grown on, which is, you know, it used to be kind of, you know, let's try to make it work. Let's try to hang on to the client.

Let's try to sort this out and not offend them or anything like that. And this is why people pay you, right? Is to have these conversations right in the moment.

There will be times when they are that way and they're never going to change. I usually find, I call this kind of punching them in the face in a respectful way, but it's the, you know, this is what I'm seeing here and, you know, what's going on with this. And what I usually find is that it's covering for some sort of an insecurity, right?

It's covering for some perceived shortcoming on their end. And then when they get called out on that in a respectful way, in a way where it doesn't feel like they're being attacked for no reason or you're trying to expose them or anything like that. And it's just, you know, what are you really thinking here?

What's really going on here? It's something that you can really get to and it makes the whole rest of the engagement totally different. And again, this is something I've learned over time and experience and definitely do right up front now in a way that I didn't before.

[Roger]

I could see how that'd be a very delicate situation of seeing behavior or hearing words from a client and realizing, okay, this is not the kind of leader I would want in charge and identifying that, oh, this is probably a part of them that's speaking. It's an old tape. It's a story they're telling themselves of how they should show up.

And that's an opportunity to go a little deeper and to understand like, hey, what is that story you're telling yourself? Or this sounds like it's in contrast to how you were talking before about how you want to show up as a leader. A lot of ways to enter that.

But if, you know, it's going to require, you know, two to tango, right? You're there in the corner. You're the corner man helping them out.

But if they don't want to box with themselves, it's not going to happen.

[Dan]

Yeah, it's so well said. And I know it goes to your parts work and all of that. And it's a huge part of coaching, right?

Is really understanding this emotional side, understanding this personal side and being willing to go there.

[Roger]

Yeah, for sure. So Dan, what's next for you and your superpower of being in the corner of the kind of leaders you want in charge?

[Dan]

Yeah, so I'm about to officially start a new business, which is very exciting. So I have a long time collaborator. He's public about it.

He was a coaching client when he was a VP of talent acquisition and a guy named Spencer Campbell. So we are business partners and all, you know, for all intents and purposes already, we do a lot of joint work with clients. So his business is really being a kind of reverse recruiter, working on behalf of job seekers to help them get connected to places, help them understand where they want to be going and kind of tee them up with these opportunities so that they can figure out what's next for them and then actually go ahead and land that being represented in the way that a talent agent might represent a client.

And we've started working together a lot with joint clients on this model of both the coaching and the representation. And it's been wildly successful. It's been super fun to be doing it.

And we align our incentives with clients. We get paid a percentage when they win. So it's this very, everyone's rowing in the same direction.

Everyone's on the same team. Everyone is fully incented to be supporting their job search and have it be a success. And we're actually about to officially launch this as a new business coming up very shortly called Social Impact Talent.

And what we're going to be doing is formalizing this and having, you know, probably an e-course that has a lot of our job search methodology baked in, our resources so people can access this at a lower entry point and then have super high ends, both Spencer and myself working with people kind of two on one, especially geared toward people in the social impact space and helping them get into their next roles.

[Dan]

And this is, you know, I think of leadership and career as connected in a way that I think a lot of people don't, but putting the kind of people you want in charge into positions where they have this power to influence organizational strategy and direction and lead teams and even found their own enterprise and lead in that way is a critical first step toward actually getting better leadership into organizations. And then often what I'll do is once we help somebody get placed at a new organization, I will go and they'll ask me to coach them in that new role.

And I always find that that's one of the coolest experiences of you've, you've been with them on this journey of getting to where they are and then now what do they do with it? Dan, you're not excited about this at all. No, no.

Did you see the boredom on my face?

[Roger]

Yeah. You went from a nine to a 10, like it was amazing to see that pods of energy just boom, pop for you. I'm excited for you.

And I'm curious about, you know, as someone who's probably done a lot of independent work solo, right, as a coach or as, as a consultant, now to be working with a partner, tell me, tell me about, you know, where that, you know, what you're excited about and having a partner and how this is going to be different than maybe the experience you've had as an independent.

[Dan]

It's a great question. And the nice thing about this is we've been working together now for probably at least a couple of years, if not even a little longer than that on this stuff. And we've seen, you know, how much better our creative output is in particular working with somebody else than it is either of us separately.

Cause we have our own, you know, areas we don't consider, right. We have, we have different strengths, we have different weaknesses and something about that creative collaboration, you know, it's kind of a, not comparing myself to the Beatles, but let's say that it's the Beatles work is much better than any of the requisite solo work that, that comes out, even if the solo work is good, it's fine, but there's, there's something magical about that. Working with other people who share a creative energy and bring a different lens to things.

I think if you really want to push your work to the next level, if you really want to bring your best to clients and you can find a business partner who compliments your abilities and really bring something fresh and interesting to the table while being values aligned, I think is something I'd encourage everyone to do.

[Roger]

So Dan, are you ready for the lightning round? Let's do it. Fill in the blank, being in the corner for the kind of leaders you want in charge is?

First word that comes to mind is fun.

[Dan]

Who in your life is in your corner? So many people. I am, I am very lucky.

So I have a, I have great parents, great family. I think my, my wife is probably the biggest example of this. And there's not many people who are very cool with people leaving a job and starting an independent practice and having that grow over time and having that be such a focus of, of my life.

And she's been absolutely amazing with that. And it really wouldn't be possible without, without people like that around you.

[Roger]

Is there a practice or routine that helps you grow, nurture, or renew your superpower?

[Dan]

I do a lot of pro bono coaching. And this started this past year with all of the different changes to the social impact sector. I said, you know, what am I doing withholding my coaching from people at a time like this, if I'm, if I'm serving, you know, nonprofits, the social sector.

So I've, I've coached over 450 people pro bono this past year probably more than that. And what I find in that is that it, A is the right thing to do. B is a great business move.

So I don't know why other coaches are holding this back, right? People, people get to experience working with you and you don't even talk about working together. And then, you know, a number of them say, can we work together?

Right. And that's, that's a great thing, even when that doesn't happen. And that's not the point of it.

There's something about learning from the perspectives of so many different people across so many different settings and with so many different ways of approaching leadership and their views on the world and their views on the job search that you just very quickly learn so, so, so, so, so much about leadership in a way that you can't from just being in one particular setting. A lot of these pro bono clients are people I've connected with and I keep in touch with and have been really gracious with talking to job seekers who are super aligned with what they're working on. And it's just been this rewarding cycle of getting much better as a coach, of great for business, great for relationships, the right thing to do, and you just build so many connections.

[Roger]

You're helping them so then they can go back to doing the thing that is in service to the greater good. So in that way, you are having your impact in making the world a better place. And I love how that came through in that response.

What is one thing that gets in your way of being in the corner of those leaders you want in charge?

[Dan]

There's the things that you are excellent at, that are the kind of zone of genius activities, to use that framing of it. That's that being in the corner of the kind of leaders you want to charge. And then there's all this kind of wrap around stuff that helps to keep the lights on and helps to keep the business moving forward and all that.

And I think a lot of coaches have this very just drop everything that's not zone of genius and move forward. And it's not that easy in reality because of the connection that having a thriving business has on being able to show up in the way that you need to show up as a coach. So I would caution anyone who's, you know, yeah, you just have to completely only do the exact thing that you're a genius at.

Eventually, yes, but not until you're at that point where you can actually do that because it requires you being resilient and financially stable to be able to show up in that way.

[Roger]

Got to pay the bills. And if we're not paying the bills and we're not running our business effectively, we're not going to be able to be in that corner. That's exactly it.

If an audience member wanted to ask you a question or follow you, where do you want to point them to?

[Dan]

So you can follow me on LinkedIn. It's just LinkedIn slash Dan Freeling, F-R-E-E-H-L-I-N-G. The H is silent.

We can come up with something that it stands for.

[Roger]

How about heck yeah?

[Dan]

Heck yeah. Dan, heck yeah, Freeling. So follow me on LinkedIn.

Feel free to message me. My website is contempusleadership.com. So we can probably put the link in the show notes, I'm sure.

And yeah, if you're in the social sector, feel free to book away on a pro bono session. So those are open. I have some limited time set aside for those for anyone in nonprofits, education, healthcare, anything kind of related to social impact.

And otherwise we'd love to just connect with your listeners in any way I can.

[Roger]

Dan, it's been such a privilege having this conversation with you. We joked when I was on your podcast and a little bit at the beginning about like how we're, you know, on paper, there's so many similarities between us. And maybe those continue on in these conversations, but I really appreciate the depth of knowledge, the wisdom that you're applying to your business, whether it's as a consultant or a coach or the new company that you're applying.

It is really clear that you are able to bring knowledge and action and wisdom to the benefit of the people that you work with, that you are truly in the corner of the type of leaders you want in charge. And I just, it was just so wonderful to be able to spend this time to have you unpack what that means for you. And it just came through in such an authentic and meaningful way.

So thank you for sharing that with us.

[Dan]

That means so much coming from you, Roger. And this was an amazing conversation. Thanks for having me.

Okay. Take care. Bye-bye.

You as well. Bye-bye.

[Roger]

Thank you all for being in this conversation with us. And thank you, Dan, for sharing your wisdom on what it's like to be in the corner with a leader as they face some of the biggest challenges in their career. The question I'm asking myself now after this conversation is how can I be more present and more attuned to my clients so I'm better able to balance empathy and efficacy when I work with them?

What Do You Know To Be True is a 3 Blue Pens production, and I'm your host, Roger Kastner. We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people. If you enjoyed this episode, you'll love this episode with Janet Livingstone about applying internal family systems, IFS, to coaching.

And also this episode with Joel Monk about how to be more present to the emergent. Thank you all for being here. Be well, my friends.

And as always, love you, mean it.