Resilience Is A Team Sport - You May Be Doing It Wrong | Bill Hefferman

Resilience Is A Team Sport - You May Be Doing It Wrong | Bill Hefferman - Transcript

[Roger]
You may think that the path to increasing your resilience is something you should be able to do yourself. That adaptability and growth are a solo sport.  But what if that isolation is exactly what is keeping you stuck, stressed out, and stagnant? 

The ability to bounce back better to life’s adversity is developed in relation with others. 

To help us unpack this, I’ve asked today’s guest, Resilience expert Bill Hefferman, to come back after his first appearance two years ago on Resilience.

And In this conversation, we explore the immediate steps you can take today to increase your resilience, not just to help yourself, but in community with others, so you don't have to carry the weight alone.

Welcome to What Do You Know To Be True? where we have real conversations about the superpowers inside each of us, confirming that you already have what you need to become more of your possible self. 

I’m Roger Kastner and I’ve spent over 25 years working with leaders and teams to co-create the strategies that bring clarity, possibility, and humanity back into their lives and the workplace.
What Viewer Gets

In this conversation, Bill shares three ways we can improve our resilience today, why resilience thrives in higher performing teams, and the research why some people who experience the same traumatic experience, increase their resilience while others have a very different reaction.

If you are ready to learn more about increasing resilience in yourself and in the communities you belong to, let’s dive in. 

[Roger]
Hey Bill, thank you for joining me and welcome back.

[Bill]
It's great to be back, Roger.

[Roger]
I think of you as my resilience guru. You're the first person I come to when I have questions about resilience, but we worked together a number of years ago. I know you do organizational development work, leader development work, change management work.

What else is important for us to know about you?

[Bill]
These days, I'm really going all in on resilience, flexibility, adaptability. As I look at our world and the more I talk to people, every time I talk to people about this whole resilience thing, people light up and they go, oh, my company could really use that or, oh my God, that's so helpful. Or even just getting people to realize that it's okay to not believe everything they think can be so incredibly helpful for people.

And so every time I present on this material, I get that kind of feedback from people that tells me to keep going and to dig deeper on this topic. So that's really what I'm up to. It's a whole speaking, teaching.

My offering is both in terms of keynotes and breakout talks, as well as organizational workshops for organizations, either virtually like this webinar kind of formats or favorite is in person. But more and more with our hybrid workspaces, that gets tougher and tougher. And another part of my life is, so I live in Portland, Oregon.

My wife at 35 years, lovely Linda, and two grown boys, 33 and 29, who are both musicians. And I pass those genes on to them. They're much better musicians than I, but I have some of that in me.

And I play in a couple of bands. I'm a harmonica player, more than blues, but blues always comes into everything in Americana music. So that's a really big source of joy in my life.

[Roger]
It's been two years. This is your second time on the podcast, and you were guest number three. When you graced us with your wisdom about resilience, your harmonica playing, and just, you know, good old Bill.

And I'm so glad that you're back. One of the reasons why I wanted you back for all those reasons, but a new reason was that I've noticed in the last three months, our episode from those two years ago is getting a lot of new listeners and new viewers. And it makes me think because you and I talked, you're not promoting the episode.

I'm not promoting the episode lately. It's the topic of resilience that's trending. And I'm excited to learn from you why you think, why might people be looking into this topic of resilience again?

[Bill]
You know, our world conditions, and if you pay attention to what's going on, no matter where you fall on the whole political or economic spectrum, there's a lot to be concerned about. And there's a lot of very overwhelming global factors that we, you know, affordability or, you know, whatever it might be, there's a lot of stuff that's happening that we don't have any impact on. And it may seem like, and in many ways, you could even argue that it is, that the odds are stacked against us.

And that any talk of resilience or resourcefulness or adaptability or flexibility is, you know, is really just putting lipstick on a pig. And that ultimately we're, you know, we're all kind of doomed. I can't say whether or not we're doomed or not.

I think every generation feels like they're doomed at one point or another. But the fact is, you know, you have what you have. And there have been terrible times throughout the history of humankind where it looked pretty bad and it was pretty bad.

But here we are today, you know, we survive, we keep going. And the key really is ultimately to deal with, to have that agentic hope, that sense of agency and confidence that there are things that I can do, even small little actions. And the interesting thing is when you look at the equation between actions and emotions or motivation and action, is that, you know, we think we need to feel motivated, we need to feel positive in order to act.

Like I've got this project that, and I really am procrastinating. I don't want to do it. I don't feel motivated.

And so I'm not going to do it. And through motivation research and all sorts of psychological research, you know, the big secret is, and maybe it's not so secret, is that emotion follows action and that, you know, by and large, and that you act your way into feeling motivated. You don't motivate yourself into action.

Another one of the things I've learned over the last few years is seeing the actual really strong connection between executive function and resilience. And what I mean by that is because there's such a strong, uh, that, that the control is such a strong factor in resilience and having a sense of agency that I can impact my part of the world in some fashion, that sense of, of, of, of agency and being able to act gives us, gives us hope, which in many ways is when you look at our world today can lead you into, lead one into feeling a sense of hopelessness and despair. You know, you can either feel a sense of hope from an external, you know, some supernatural force or whatever, you know, the great mystery is to you, like, you know, this external being is going to save me.

But really, um, from a resilience perspective, from an agentic hope that having that sense of, uh, taking action in some small way in your own world to act upon whatever that problem is that you're facing tends to give us greater motivation and then gives us hope, a sense of agency that we can impact things. What I would say is that, um, you know, don't give up on resilience too quickly and don't write it off as, you know, toxic positivity, because really, you know, nothing happens in this world without people making that shift into taking that first step and to address whatever that problem is, to accept where you're at with something and just start where you are and accept that. And then oftentimes that first step, that first little thing, and it might just be a tiny little thing, um, is once you start to take that, then it's like, it's like driving in, in a, at night in, in the fog, you know, you can't see, you know, 20 feet in front of you, but when you drive 10 feet, you can see 10 more feet in front of you.

And so laying those steps as we go, I think is, is a big part of our, uh, needs to be a big part of, of our overall resilience strategies. You know, don't wait to feel motivated, take action in some small way that you can. And you'll oftentimes find that, you know, that leads to the next step and the next.

And you'll find also your, your energy shifting through that action from that overwhelmed, uh, uh, anxious state of being into that more agentic, uh, hopeful, resourceful state.

[Roger]
There's a few things popping up for me as you were talking about that. The, the first one was James clear in atomic habits. We'll talk about, if you want to start going to the gym, like not only like lay out your clothes right next to the door, you know, put your shoes on, go to the gym for five minutes.

And then if you don't want to be there to leave, well, once you're there again, taking action. Yeah. Now you're going to believe of like, okay, I'm going to work out.

I'm going to go do the thing that I, that I want to do that. I say I'm going to do, but most days I don't do because I haven't taken that action. The other thing that's making me think about is within change management, when we are helping organizations and teams accept change, uh, we're trying to think about what is within the control of the team, of the leader and what can they do?

What's the thing that they can do that they have control over to start experiencing the change. And it's also part of the coaching practice that I have where in working with a client who might be overwhelmed or might be, you know, has something that's in their way. And we'll just ask the question, what's in your control?

Again, trying to get them to tap into their agency of owning that next right step for them to take or next, any step for them to take that it's part agency. It's part taking that action that will lead to more steps towards that positive goal that they, that they want.

[Bill]
Right. You mentioned a few things there that, that again, I've just been reading and listening more. There's this really great podcast, Emma, I don't remember her last name, but it's, it's therapy in a nutshell is the name of the, of her video.

You can go on YouTube and just in just search for therapy in a nutshell, but she was talking about, um, habit and habit formation and James clear and everything this morning. And she was talking about structure, you know, that thing of, uh, putting your, putting your running shoes by the door, uh, having a running buddy. That's going to show that you got to meet in the park at 7.

AM. And you don't want to, you don't want, you know, so, so having that kind of accountability, if you're trying to eat better, getting the junk out of your house, never bringing the junk in your house, you know, if you're trying to quit drinking, you know, get rid of that alcohol because, you know, just don't tempt yourself. So, so that's the kind of thing where structure where we can grease the skids on ourselves.

I have going back to executive function, um, with some of my own, uh, uh, the gift of ADHD that I, that I have, um, and studying executive function. One of the particular aspects of executive function that I struggle with, as do many people with, uh, you know, procrastination issues is around, um, task initiation. It's, it's one of the sort of core skills of executive function.

And, um, it's that thing that you talked about of, um, I don't have to go to a gym for an hour and a half. Um, my expectation is I just, I want to get in the door and I'm going to spend five minutes there. And then of course, once you're there, then, you know, the flywheel starts turning and away you go.

Um, and so for me, I have these, these timer cubes that I've got on, you know, online and where I can just set it for five minutes, 10 minutes, whatever it is. And I just say, okay, I don't need to do this for an hour. I just need to do it for five minutes.

And then of course, once I start, you know, away we go. Another structural thing, uh, is, um, is having an accountability buddy. And I use a, an online service called Focusmate.

I don't know if you ever used Focusmate, um, focusmate.com. I don't make any money from these guys. Um, I pay them money, a small fee every month.

And what it does is it's like a zoom call and you schedule a Focusmate call. And at that appointed time, you, you open up the app and there's another person there and you go, hi, where are you? I'm in, I'm in Tasmania.

And like, where are you? I'm in Portland, Oregon. What are you working on?

I'm working on a marketing plan this hour. What are you working on? Oh, I'm, I'm actually developing a talk that I'm, or I'm studying for this podcast I'm going to do with Roger Casper tomorrow.

And, um, they go great. And you, you put your, you keep the camera on, you put your mic on mute, and then you both, it's like you co-work and you're not looking at the other person. It seems kind of weird.

It's like, but they're, they're, they have a different screen up. They're working on a spreadsheet or some other tool you're working on your thing. And then, uh, after 50 minutes you get, or whatever your session is that you set up, you get a chime and you come back on and it's like, Hey, Joe, how did you do?

It's like, ah, you know, I did pretty well. I got distracted for a little while, but, but it was good. And, uh, and, uh, how'd you do?

And then, and that's it. And then you can, if you have a good interaction with this person, you can favorite them and they might show up more frequently for you. But I just, I love the tool.

And there's an example of, uh, of, uh, and it's that connection between, between again, between executive function and resilience and productivity that is, is so valuable. It's really a part of my whole work routine now.

[Roger]
We started the conversation talking about how resilience seems to be, it seems to be trending as the kids say, as evidenced by more people watching our first episode. Yeah. If people are looking to increase their resilience, what are three things you would recommend that they do?

[Bill]
You know, one of them, one of the tools or practices that I, that I have described, and again, we can put that one in the show notes too, but the, uh, is what I call call AAA. And like when your car breaks down, call AAA. And the AAA, the three A's are awareness, acceptance, the all critical acceptance step, and then attention.

And here's how that works. That ability to pause and, and stop is really that, that first critical move and perhaps the, the most simple, but not the easiest move is to just have that, to stop and have that awareness. The second thing then is to, is the acceptance of when you, then you're in the moment, you go, wow, I'm really feeling anxious, um, to, to follow that up with that.

And that's okay. You know, like being okay with not being okay. And again, this is something that's sort of a new competency that I'm developing for myself, but I really see it as so fundamental, um, because our natural tendency is to go towards, uh, blame and shame and, and piling anxiety on top of anxiety and ruminating.

Once we are in that more accepting baseline state, I think we find from research. And I find from my own experience that then it's easier, much easier to turn my attention to a more resourceful, resilient mindset, where I might then have the resource. And because in essence, what I've done is I've shifted out of that, those two nervous system state of that shutdown and that fight flight activation.

And now I'm bringing in more of that, what they call ventral vagal, but that more of that optimal nervous system state where it gives me the resource that I, that I need to be able to look at a situation differently and to be able to go, okay, well actually maybe it's not the end of the world. And there actually might be an opportunity here. There's certainly always an opportunity for me to shift my own attitude about it and, um, to not freak out about it.

But there might also be an opportunity for me to heal that relationship or to take that first step to solve that problem or whatever that might be. So that basic process, I think is really fundamental to resilience of call AAA, of awareness, acceptance, and then attention. But if you go right to attention of like, well, I'm just going to try to be positive.

If you're all, if you're all jacked on anxiety or anger, you're not going to be able to get there very easily.

[Roger]
I know you're continuously being curious and learning more and more about resilience. So I'm curious in the last two years, since you've been on, what have you learned about resilience in that time?

[Bill]
It's interesting over the course of 25 years or more of looking at this topic, you're going along and on this certain set of understandings and assumptions, and then something comes up where it changes. You sort of up-level your understanding and it changes your game. And there've been a couple of those things that have happened in the past couple of years.

One is just the general trend towards greater self-compassion, greater, um, understanding of the value of not always trying to be, you know, more positive, more resourceful before sort of accepting and sinking into, and being compassionate with just what's going on for you, particularly when you're in that, you know, below the line, non-resilient survival state from a nervous system perspective of fight, flight, freeze. Our natural tendency, it feels uncomfortable when we, when we are not in a resilient state, when, when our attitude is, is lagging or, or when we're, you know, maybe doom scrolling in bed and late at night or early in the morning, and our thoughts just crater and you start to feel anxious.

It's just, it's quite natural. And then our natural tendency is to either, either, you know, blame or shame ourselves or other people and, or beat up on ourselves, um, you know, try to, try to, try to hate ourselves, uh, to happiness, um, which doesn't work very well. But then there's really just being able to, um, the fundamental move that I find that's been quite new for me to try and to practice is to be able to sit with stuff, to have that basic awareness, and then to just sit with those feelings and just notice them and not try to change them and, uh, you know, express, you know, kind things to myself and be more self-compassionate.

And I find that when I do that more and more, um, it gives me a much better footing on what I do next, where I go next. So that's, that's been a, that's been a big thing for me. The second thing that's been big for me is, and it was something that I had already been aware of, you know, a couple of years ago, but I, but I've really deepened my study of it and my understanding of it.

This idea that, uh, that our nervous system and the state of our nervous system is this mediating variable between stimulus and response. What I mean is that when you have a stimulus, some, you know, you, you're doom scrolling and read, oh my God, this thing happened or whatever that might be, or, or something, or you look at your bank account, go, oh, you know, I'm out of cash or whatever that might be, depending upon where you're at from a, from a nervous system perspective will determine how, uh, we'll, we'll mediate how, how you react to that. So what I mean by that is if you can think of our nervous system as without getting into all the techno jargon, but really these three major states of being, you have this optimal state, um, of, of your nervous system when you're, when you're on, when you're resilient, when you're collaborative, creative, innovative, um, you know, and, and you have much greater flexibility and adaptability when facing situations, you know, instead of saying, oh my God, I'm doomed, you know, you go, well, gosh, you know, maybe there's a silver lining here, or maybe there's some way to work through this. And that's that optimal state of being, you know, of our nervous The second state is that, that state that we're all quite familiar with, which is that fight, flight, freeze, that nervous system activation when your nervous system is mobilized very naturally.

So to protect you, you know, it's our bioevolutionary heritage of having this nervous system that, you know, that, that comes to the ready and prepares us to run away or do battle or whatever that might be. And then the third major state of our nervous system is, is that overwhelmed shutdown state so that when, if you shift out of that optimal state into that fight, flight, freeze survival state, our sympathetic nervous system. And if that doesn't help you to feel more safe and connected, if that doesn't resolve the issue, then your nervous system very naturally pulls you into more a shutdown survival.

And that can feel like depression or low energy, no energy, don't want to get out of bed. Depending upon where your nervous system is at when you face this stressor will determine what your thoughts are around that. So one of the major proponents of, of the whole theory of the autonomic nervous system, Deb Dana has a saying that she says, you know, story follows state that we think, well, I'll just be positive.

I'll just have this, I'll just think positively about this. But if your nervous system is in that fight, flight, freeze, or that shutdown state, it ain't going to go there. You know, it's just, it's really hard to have that positive state.

And it can also be kind of, but, you know, sort of a toxic positivity. If you try to muscle your way into, you know, having a better attitude, it's like your mom saying, well, just be positive, honey. And it's just like, mom, you know, this isn't, that's not working for me, you know, whatever that is.

So that's been a big, just a big realization that I've been playing more and more with and teaching more and more about how to become more of an expert operator of your, of your own nervous system, how to recognize what's going on, and then to take appropriate steps to, to mitigate whatever that might be. And there's other things. I have one more thing to share about what's changed in the last, or what have I learned in the last couple of years.

You know, I listen to podcasts as I walk in the forest most days, or walk in the neighborhood most days. And I really love Hidden Brain with Shankar V. Dantam.

And he had a guest on there, a guy, George Bonanno, who wrote a book called The End of Trauma. And he's a, he's a resilience researcher, extraordinaire, and, and has looked at particularly big traumatic experiences like 9-11 and the World Trade Center and, and all the victims from, from, from that and, and other, you know, both individual cases and larger, you know, big environmental disasters and other things, and looked at, okay, so what do people typically do in these situations? Do they, do they all go, do they all get traumatized forever?

Or do they, do they bounce back? Like what happens to folks? And what he found was, was super compelling and interesting and, and, and aligned with much of what I understood about resilience.

But that is that in these big disasters, like 9-11, et cetera, that a full two thirds of those people who were involved with that actually have this resilience response, where yes, there is that initial dip into trauma, terror, fear, you know, sleeplessness, as they process the emotions around that. But there's a point at which they get this bounce back and at which they start to respond in a more resilient fashion. And it's a full two thirds.

Now, yes, there are, in fact, a much smaller percentage of folks who unfortunately do experience PTSD and other, you know, trauma related, ongoing trauma related symptoms. But a majority of people actually have this resilience response. And what he found was that in looking at them further, he said, so what's going on with these people?

What's different? And he found that they, in general, have a different mindset around trouble, difficulty, trauma, et cetera, and how to respond to it. And they also have a different response, you know, action response to it.

And the mindset is like, is more of that resilience mindset that says, okay, this is, I've just been through this thing. It was terrible, but I can bounce back. I can come back from this.

I can cope and I've done hard things before and I can do it again. And so that's their sort of resilience mindset that they hold. And then the second in terms of their actions, he identified this really sort of simple but powerful pattern is that almost to a person that they, there were these three steps that they engaged in.

The first was just taking stock of where they were and what happened. And they just really looked at the reality square in the face and didn't try to deny it or hide from it or whatever. Sort of like, yeah, this thing happened and here's where I'm at.

I'm a mess, but I have these resources and I can do these things and whatever that might be, but they take stock. And the second step is that they have this repertoire. Some of those things might be some of these resilience tips that they've learned from me or from somebody else or read about or just discovered through life, through their own sort of heuristic process.

And they try stuff out and sometimes it works. It's like, oh yeah, I found that if I talk to my aunt Lena every day, that she's really good at bringing me back down to earth and helping me out. Or I find that if I really work out hard just a couple, few times a week, that that really helps me ground.

Or I found a daily meditation practice that isn't too hard, but just a five or 10 minute thing that really helps. Or whatever that is, they try stuff out. And then when stuff doesn't work, the third step is that they assess and they get feedback on how successful that was.

And if it wasn't successful, they'll try something else. But I found it very encouraging that George Bonanno found that in these populations that really the majority response to difficulty in life is a resilience response. It's really hardwired into us.

[Roger]
That is quite remarkable that two thirds of a group that experienced something has that resilient response. I don't know if we would call that necessarily post-traumatic stress growth. I think we either get stronger or we don't.

I don't know if there's any going back to where we were before, but it seems very encouraging that the number is that high.

[Bill]
It is. And that also aligns with, it's a little bit higher than what I had read from post-traumatic growth research, where the number that I had heard before was around half. But that's still in the ballpark, right?

It's still in that direction that of people who go through major trauma that a full, at least a half from that other research around post-traumatic growth, experience post-traumatic growth. And post-traumatic growth is marked by several pieces of evidence or several things. One is a greater sense of capacity or capability.

That which does not kill me makes me stronger sort of thing. There's a stronger connection to meaning and purpose. People also experience oftentimes deepened relationships, as well as an understanding of what really matters in life and what doesn't matter.

And a lot of these things, again, are post-traumatic growth is born of just of who we are and comes from within. But there are also some other factors involved. If you have a strong social support network, oftentimes a spiritual practice or a religion can also provide that kind of support, but not universally speaking.

And also if people had already established a resilience practice or a resilience mindset, that that's a huge resource in responding to these traumas and issues in life. And not everything is a trauma. I mean, we also, I think all of us every day experience frustrations and annoyances and challenges and difficulties and problems and issues.

It's just like, welcome to life.

[Bill]
And so I think a lot of the research from these reactions to these big traumas, etc., are also helpful for us to understand on a more day-to-day basis of how we can be more resilient.

[Roger]
And you were just talking about when we're in groups of people who experience these things, that connection to groups, that being in relation with others who experience the same thing can help us be a little bit more buoyant, be a little bit more resilient. I would love to hear you talk a little bit more about what you've learned about resilience, especially in teams.

[Bill]
As human beings, without big long fangs and sharp claws, our survival has really depended on the tribe. Our survival has depended upon our being in a protective group. When we have a group of us who can conspire and strategize and work together, we're much safer.

And so that natural propensity for social resilience, we've actually evolved to have that. When we are at our best, when we are in the most creative, collaborative, joyful, innovative state of being, is when we feel safe and connected to other people. So we all sort of biologically, neurologically function best in relationship with other people, knuckleheads and people that piss us off notwithstanding.

In our prior discussion, I had said to you that ultimately, resilience is a social phenomenon, that yes, there are, in a pure technical individual sense, can I have a resilient thought on my own? You bet. Can I take a resilient action?

Can I recognize a less than ideal nervous system state and take myself for a walk around the block to change my energy? You bet. But where we learned resilience from birth is in our primary relationships and our familiar relationships, and particularly with our mothers or whoever parented us in that close way.

That's where we learned through the process of co-regulation that we learned to regulate our own nervous systems. And that's why when we are in really challenging or anxious or less than ideal states of being with our nervous system, with feeling anger or anxiety, whatever it is, is that oftentimes one of the best things we can do is talk to a best friend. Talk to a buddy, talk to a person who can help us smooth down the feathers or whatever that might be.

When you think about the best teams that you've ever been a part of or the best organizations that you've ever been a part of or those jobs that you've really loved, oftentimes what you hear from folks is, well, what did you really love about it? And yes, there's, well, I achieved this great thing or I learned a ton or whatever, but oftentimes, and this is certainly the case with me, it's always about the people. It's always about the relationships.

Yeah, sure. Do I remember that annoying client or that bad project or whatever it is? It's like, sure, I do.

But really what I carry with me from 35 years of working in the corporate world are these relationships and these friendships and these memories of these great things that we achieved together and, or those team situations that weren't great and where there was a lot of conflict and a lot of unsupportive, psychologically unsafe behaviors or environment. Anyway, and there's more to say about what happened, what fosters that team resilience and what are the outcomes of that? We can talk about that some more.

[Roger]
You were mentioning as we were talking prior to getting on, prior to hitting record, around neuroception and this idea that this below consciousness awareness that happens when we are physically near others and how our nervous system is tuned into the nervous system of others. And so I'm sure just as that could increase resilience, it probably could also increase maybe some less than positive results and feelings. Absolutely.

[Bill]
So below our conscious level of awareness, as we communicate or as we are together, our nervous systems are underneath that sort of sensing one another's energy. And, you know, we also, there's also mirror neurons that we've heard talk about that, where we pick up on the energy of other people, we pick up on their vibes and the vibes that we get from other people, they talk about in polyvagal theory, the science of the autonomic nervous system, they talk about our nervous systems picking up on signals of welcome or warning. Now there's also, it's not just all welcome or warning.

There's a lot of sort of neutral stuff, but for those things that change us either to spin us up into greater states of optimal functioning and resilience and contentment and joy and collaboration and everything, that's when we get those signals of welcome. And when we feel safe and connected, when we get those signals of warning, when that, you know, that person kind of gives me a, kind of gives me the grapes or that person just bugs me or my manager, I never feel comfortable around my manager. That's that, that your nervous system.

And oftentimes before you have that, even that conscious thought of that person just said this thing and I don't agree with it, whatever, you know, oftentimes long before that, you've already got the vibe and you're like, I don't like this person, you know, or, and not even maybe consciously so. So we all have an impact on one another. There are these, these resilience stewards.

And these are people who for whatever reason, nature, nurture, and some combination thereof have that vibe. They have that ability. They, they carry that more resilient, positive, above the line state of their, their nervous system, but also in their outer expression of their behaviors and their thoughts and their beliefs and their speech and everything else.

And other people pick up on it. And I think those resilience stewards are quite important, but I think we all play a role in these things. Generally speaking, that for me, that really suggests that we all play such an important role in creating dynamics in teams and fostering either resilient, you know, positive, resourceful team culture, or one that is, you know, more conflict oriented and more individualistically oriented.

[Roger]
And I want to go a little deeper into this role of being on teams, because I have come to this realization in these conversations where we talk about superpowers and the superpowers being a path to someone, someone's potential to unlocking their possibilities, that there's a number of building blocks that are along the way that help, you know, the spending time in those, in those areas, ultimately accelerate their ability to live into their possibilities. And when one that's, it's one of the more recent ones that have been identified, definitely in the last two years, has been around the idea of community and team, this idea of like, it's the relationship that we're in.

And I, I believe that these superpowers that we're talking about are only exist in relationship with other people. So it makes it real clear that team and community is this piece, but would love to hear you go into a little bit more and maybe unpack the relationships that happen within teams and how that can accelerate or denigrate resilience amongst the team or a group of people.

[Bill]
Right. Again, going back to like, what is the mediating variable? What is the pathway into our more optimal state of being, our more optimal functioning?

And it really is in feeling safety and connection, which you could boil down into perhaps the word trust. And it makes me think of Paul Zack and his article in Harvard Business Review, the neuroscience of trust and his book, The Trust Factor, in which he measured trust with, by measuring people's oxytocin in their blood, which is the neurotransmitter, you know, that is the mark of a sense of trust and closeness. And he was in that able to identify what are those factors that engender that sense of trust?

And then what comes from that sense of trust? And the other really fascinating thing was, is that what Paul Zack found out is that the combination of having a close relationship with my manager, but also with, and I would say by extension with team members, by having that sense of psychological safety, of having trust, feeling close and connected and safe, along with that sense of, I matter, like I have a role here to play. I matter to the people that, to whom I belong on this team.

And my work matters to them. My work matters to the organization, to the world. I'm having an impact in whatever small way that I'm having.

And the combination of that sense of trust and safety and connection combined with a sense of purpose and a sense of mattering, like I really matter, creates not just a engagement in the workplace, a la Gallup employee engagement, but it's sort of a supercharged, turbocharged form of engagement that he actually could only define as joy. And that there was real joy in work. And when you think again of those, of the great teams that you've been a part of and the great organizations that you've been a part of, if you've had that pleasure and been fortunate enough to have that experience, there is that sense of joy.

At least, maybe not all the time, but sort of the undertone at least is a sense of joy and closeness and connection. And so then he said, okay, well, what are those things that engender that sense of trust and joy and connection and all that? And there are a number of markers.

I have, and we can put it in the show notes, a couple of assessments of these core behaviors. There's two different assessments. There's the IRQ, the Individual Resilience Quotient.

What are these 24 behaviors that when you demonstrate them engender greater resilience in your own person? And then there's the Leadership Resilience, the LRQ, the Leadership Resilience Quotient, which is what are those behaviors that leaders demonstrate that engender resilience in those that they lead? I need to actually develop the TRQ, the Team Resilience Quotient.

But I think it's a combination of some, you know, it's in close ballpark range of those other two groups of behaviors, the behaviors that we demonstrate for ourselves to engender resilience in ourselves and those things that we do for other people that help them be more resilient. Things such as, so I can sort of extrapolate from the Individual and the Leadership Resilience Quotient to think about what are those team behaviors. And if we think of in terms of the seven Cs, resilience factors, I can sort of click through those.

And again, in the show notes, we can provide an overview of what those seven Cs are. So people don't have to scribble furiously. But anyway, so like the first thing of calm, the first thing of calm is that when we attend to other people in healthy ways and help them through our own behaviors and our own speech and our own empathy and compassion with other people, we definitely play a huge role in helping regulate other people's nervous systems and as we regulate our own nervous system.

So that's calm. The second one is compassion, which when we can help people feel accepted and safe and connected through our, again, through our actions and our speech, and just our, probably our greatest tool is just listening to folks. That's another behavior, another group of behaviors.

And the third one is around challenge of, you know, of having that positive attitude towards challenges and problems. And instead of with everybody sinking into the we're doomed, you know, oh my God, we're all going to die, you know, sort of attitude, having more of that challenge perspective going, okay, you know, and this might be where you might see your resilience stewards doing that sort of like, come on guys, or come on everybody, let's do this thing. You know, we got this, you know, we can do this.

And so that's the challenge. And then there's capability, both a combination of that growth mindset that says, hey, we really have, there's something we need to learn here. We haven't, we don't know how to do yet, but we can, and we should learn to be better at doing this or to tackle this challenge or this new market or whatever that problem might be.

But there's also the strengths perspective a la Gallup and that work by Donald Clifton and company, where if we help one another understand what our, and appreciate what our own strengths are and how we can better leverage those. The other factor, a super important factor in resilience that we can do for ourselves and for other people is around control and helping people understand, you know, as your teammates might be spinning off into, oh, we can't do any worrying about these, these big economic factors of, oh, you know, like, like the market's terrible or whatever it is, but there's the things that you can control. You can't control the market, but you can control that next phone call to the customer or that next interaction with the client or, you know, whatever that might be.

And so I think that's another thing that we can help one another with. The sixth is, is connection. And so, and that's just a, just a big bucket of stuff that we can do in terms of creating an atmosphere of psychological safety.

Again, bringing people more into that above the line, resilient, safe, and connected space. And then finally, there's commitment. And that is really has to do with, with purpose and meaning and mattering.

And I think to the extent that we can remind people one another of why they matter, why we matter, why we collectively matter and why our mission matters. And that, you know, to remind ourselves of, yeah, we have this problem that is, is a real challenge, but we have our mission, you know, we're trying to serve this purpose. And the more that we can be connected to that, again, the greater our propensity will be, our tendency will be towards being in that resilient state.

[Roger]
I mean, the seven C's is something you've developed a while ago. I'm trying to think like, would 10 years be out of the, the, the question of how long ago that was?

[Bill]
25.

[Roger]
Okay.

[Bill]
It started out in, when I worked for a household brand, microprocessor chip company in Hillsborough, Oregon, which you might guess which one that is. Um, back in 2001, when I started doing a lot of change management and, and, uh, and when I sort of stumbled on resilience at that point, uh, at that point I had five of the seven and I had everything, but the first two, the calm and compassion, um, and calm and compassion. I always sort of assumed was just part of connection and calm.

I regarded as something that happened, that emotional regulation that happened as a result of doing the other ones. But more and more, I became, uh, just, just more and more aware of the importance and the foundational importance of our own emotional regulation in, in resilience overall, as well as, um, to just compassion, particularly self-compassion because our natural tendency under stress is, you know, to try to hate ourselves out of it, which doesn't, you know, it doesn't work very well.

[Roger]
Okay, Bill, this is everything I was hoping to be. Again, sort of this whole conversation was spurred on by our old two-year-old episode, you know, increasing in the amounts of views and watches over the last three months that tells me resilience is still a very important topic. And I love what you brought today talking about the, you know, the two thirds of people who experience a traumatic or a, a, uh, I was going to say a traumatic experience, but obviously not traumatic for them because they were able to, to, to grow from the experience.

Whereas another third, it is a traumatic experience and they need additional help talking about team resilience and how the seven C's are applicable for teams just as much as individuals. And the thing that you said that really sticks with me is, you know, all resilience is social. It's all in relationship with others, the formation of it and the expression of it.

So love that. And I love the AAA, the call AAA for when we find ourselves in that moment of needing more resilience to first become aware, then to become, to have acceptance and then to take action. That's not the third day.

What was the third day?

[Bill]
Uh, attention, attention. I need to pay more attention when you're telling the third, it actually took me a long time to remember that third word. Oftentimes I'm going awareness, acceptance, what's that third thing?

[Roger]
What the, why can't I remember? Yeah. Like, Oh, let's go back to it.

[Bill]
You gotta pay better attention.

[Roger]
Oh, wait a minute. That's it. And I think, I think those are things for people to remember when they find themselves in that moment of like, you know, feeling stressed, feeling overwhelmed.

Acceptance has been a big thing for myself of just accepting what is, and then being able to, you know, point that attention, take the action that I need to, but not fight what is, because it doesn't make sense to try to fight or wrestle with what is, what is, is what is, there's not a whole lot you could do about it now, except for that next step. So thank you, Bill. I really appreciate your wisdom, your humor and your time.

[Bill]
Thanks Roger. It's, it's, it's always a gas talking to you. So let's maybe come back in a, a couple of years and, and we can talk about what I've learned in the last two years.

Cause I'm sure there's going to be, there's going to be more and more. There's always more. And in fact, you with the expertise that you have, you, you know, the more, the longer you stay on a topic, the more you realize that there is to know about the topic.

And the more, and the more you realize that there's so much that you don't know.

[Roger]
And I think what we have in common is this like, like innate desire to keep going deeper and deeper because every conversation you and I have, you've learned something new and you're sharing that thing. And I, I feel a brotherhood in that when I learned something, I want to share it with other people too. So I recognize that in you and embrace it in myself.

So thank you so much, Bill. Take care.

[Bill]
Thanks.

[Roger]
Thank you all for being in this conversation with us, and thank you, Bill, for sharing what you’ve learned about resilience, adaptability and flexibility since the last time you were here.

The question I’m asking myself now after the conversation is: Where can I be a better teammate so that we can collectively build up our resilience?  

What Do You Know To Be True? is a Three Blue Pens production. I’m your host, Roger Kastner. 
We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people. 

To discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you may be on, go to native-lands.ca

Be well, my friends, and, love you, mean it!