Empathy with Enrique Martin

[00:00:00] To be able to feel empathy to others, the most important learning is to start feeling empathetic with our own self, with our own self, suspend judgment and then trying to expand that space with the other.

[00:00:19] Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to The What Do You Know To Be True podcast. In these conversations I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill and the meaningful impact it has on others.

[00:00:31] The intention is not to try to emulate or hack our way to a new talent. Instead, I'm interested in what inspired them to develop this talent, how they think about their superhero power and what they recognize as the impact that has on others.

[00:00:46] The intention is to learn more about their experience with their superhero power and in doing so, maybe we can learn something about the special talent in each of us that makes us unique in the impact we have on others.

[00:00:59] This conversation is within Ruke Martin. Enrique is a fascinating dude and when it comes to the mind-body connection, whether on the mental side with spirituality, consciousness, meditation or on the physical side through yoga, running, mountain climbing,

[00:01:15] Enrique not only has something to offer about these topics, is likely to have read the book or multiple books on it.

[00:01:23] In this conversation we cover how he becomes inspired to learn more about empathy and the approach he uses to be empathetic with others and that he uses on himself. And what he's learned to be true and not true about empathy.

[00:01:39] And in this time, we're facing epidemic rates of anxiety, depression, loneliness and obstacles to well-being. This is a topic that feels so timely. I'm so grateful to Enrique for joining me to share what he has learned and experienced about being empathetic for others.

[00:01:58] If you're ready, let's dive in. Hey Enrique, welcome to the pod. Hey Roger, great to be here. Good to see you. Good to see you too and I'm so glad to be here with you. I know you need many things. You're well-read, your humble, thoughtful, engaged, your smart,

[00:02:19] and yet we're here to talk about the thing that you give to others and that's empathy and really excited to be having this opportunity to learn more about what you know to be true about empathy. But let's start off going back away.

[00:02:34] And was there an event or a role model who inspired you to want to be more empathetic? There are many people that influenced me to come up with these skills that I consider one of my superpowers and something that I feel very well about it.

[00:02:55] The person is Fred Kaufmann. He's someone that I met by his Buenos Aires. I am born and raised in Buenos Aires and 25 years ago, I've heard about the person who was a coach.

[00:03:15] And was an Argentinian, the study in MIT and has a doctor, the PhD degree in economics. And I say, hey, I need to know that person how this whole coaching works. And I saw him in action and I say, hey, I want to do the same.

[00:03:37] And one of the questions that I asked him about, hey, how are you able to do that type of connection that type of impact on the other person?

[00:03:46] And he told me that the secret his secret was empathy and that empathy and compassion was at the core of an effective coaching conversation. Hey, there is something there. Something that I truly wanted to learn.

[00:04:03] And I began my own coaching preparation and training and I studied a bit with him and his organization at that time was leading learning communities.

[00:04:20] And then he founded the axial end. We continue working with him and I read many inspired and very inspiring books. One of them was written by Rafael Cheverrea is a philosophical book, but it was before and after for me.

[00:04:40] And I originally thought that our perception of reality was simply like having an among course a little person inside our head, looking through the windows of our eyes and hearing what's going on outside.

[00:04:56] And possibly receiving to what's going on in the world. And through this book on topology of language, I learned that probably the world that we perceived, probably not that that's actually part of the thesis of the book is 50% created 50% perceived.

[00:05:16] And I was very curious about, okay, what is all this creation that the brain does and what is the role that language play and other people play on this mutual understanding of what is reality.

[00:05:30] And that led me to be very intrigued about philosophy and many other studies. And I began my coaching certification and my preparation to become a coach and someone who can drive very effective relations, especially in the working in the professional setting.

[00:05:56] That is, it was not back in those days a very common skill. And that proved to me to be very rewarding both in terms of my own career, but in terms of my own wellness and preparation.

[00:06:14] So all is started by simply listening to someone who was an inspiration to me and that was the kickoff of a long journey that, after many years here we are speaking about the same concept empathy.

[00:06:30] That's as you were walking us through that journey. It actually kind of reminded me a little of the story of Sadarthah and this sort of discovery or this, this exploration or this desire to want to learn something so deeply and looking for something more.

[00:06:54] And yet I think you said it at the end, it comes down to listening. It comes down to being present. It comes down to just being in that same space with someone and it's probably much more complicated than that.

[00:07:11] But it reminded me of that journey. Do you think of your, of course you don't think of your journey as Sadarthah and on the path to instead of enlightenment on the path to empathy but do you see some similarities there too?

[00:07:26] Yes, I see a lot of similarities, lots of differences. I mean, not necessarily you need to be enlightened to the empathetic right, yeah, this is a huge difference.

[00:07:37] But yeah, it's a journey and it's a journey where there are so many things to learn but way more things to unlearn, which is part of the common elements together with enlightenment.

[00:07:54] I am not enlightened, you don't aspire to be but given all the readings that I do. Yeah, I think there is a lot of things that we need to learn and same thing with empathy and there is a lot of humbleness that comes with it.

[00:08:16] I mean, it's not that there is no certainty. Yes, there is a place for certainty but it's more to take the other person as a legitimate other and what I would I mean by that is your views are as valid as my views but that requires total respect.

[00:08:41] Total respect to the other person and that's one of the gates to empathy. I mean, I am not a philosopher but my way to define empathy and I love reading about neuroscience and the many definitions but it's not that I have a professional definitions.

[00:09:01] However, I haven't said that my my own definition is empathy is filling with you and the key work here is with.

[00:09:11] There are similar things that comes with empathy like sympathy. sympathy is I feel for you I feel sympathy for what's going on what you are saying but this is not empathy.

[00:09:30] empathy is about feeling with you feeling together and to get to that point it requires total respect for the other person someone who is complete and whole and doesn't require me to fix you.

[00:09:49] I mean, this is total respect whether you are telling me about your truth your problems your feelings your regrets your history whether you are right or I think you're right or wrong.

[00:10:03] This is when judgment it comes and start playing barriers so the journey to empathy comes to are we capable to actually respect ourselves in the same way and sit with ourselves with the same level of respect without judgment.

[00:10:30] It's like a meditation and if we are capable to sit with ourselves with this high degree of respect and this high degree of connection removing these level of judgment or perceiving judgment as it is just the thought that comes.

[00:10:52] Father our minds shake us up and go but we need to take a judgment for what it is I mean don't don't take and don't get captured by our own judgment if we are.

[00:11:09] Beginning this journey with ourselves which is by the way not anything to do good luck if you sit with our with yourself and you can stay without judgment for just a few seconds or minutes and a few seconds is very challenging is a very challenging task if you're capable to do these you have begun the journey.

[00:11:31] And that's one of the gates to empathy is feeling with the other person in total respect with it to the other person as a valid other.

[00:11:45] Which is totally opposite to what we typically do on in a professional setup when we encounter with someone that hey by I had so many of these conversations where people come to me and say hey this listen this is going on.

[00:12:04] And they started talking it and even sometimes I don't see I don't even say a word but they finished a conversation like in a totally different mindset because they felt listened. They they were feeling the connection we were feeling together I was feeling with the other person.

[00:12:27] That was a long answer. It was a pretty powerful answer in fact it answered a couple of the questions that I was thinking of like one how do you define empathy and I think you just did really well about sitting with others with total respect.

[00:12:47] With non judgment and being able to feel with them.

[00:12:54] You did also talk about some of the challenges in sitting with non judgment and I loved how you started talking about that you have to be able to do that for yourself you have to be able to sit with yourself with total respect for yourself with non judgment and.

[00:13:13] Although you did make it clear that's that's challenging to be able to do that for for any amount of time.

[00:13:20] But to really understand those what it's like to feel with that other person which probably means you need to be in touch with what you are feeling in that moment.

[00:13:33] So it was nice it was a nice framework about how would you approach when you when those moments that you think will be. Where would be really helpful to be able to provide to show up with empathy for the person you are having a conversation with.

[00:13:52] Are there any conversations that you would not approach with a sense of empathy? Probably not. There are certain conversations that probably I may be not prepared to.

[00:14:07] I mean it's a journey and I don't say that I am prepared to face everything with empathy. I am not but I know that when I am able to connect with the other person with empathy, I am much more powerful.

[00:14:20] Now now that you mentioned and you asked me that question not necessarily empathy can be. The recipe for everything sometimes we can go a bit farther than empathy and moving to compassion. Compassion in my own definition is keep with empathy.

[00:14:45] Keep with the total respect to the other person as a leadership teammate. And create some space to provide some extra help. This extra help comes again with a total respect to the other and sell a sheety-made other and we ask information and we provide extra perspective.

[00:15:12] It's like moving to in a different jargon is moving from coaching to advice. But compassion provides us with some space to actually even though we are feeling with the other person. If the other person is totally depressed or in tears, breaking down in tears.

[00:15:44] What is a silly compassion is our secret weapon to maintaining the connection but at the same time offer something other than breaking down in tears.

[00:15:59] Sometimes we can do that move. Sometimes the other person, a silly sheety-made other person just need to be connected with someone on that break down.

[00:16:10] So here is a difference or sometimes what the other person need is but again yes, start with empathy at least for a few seconds. And then you go into a different powerful mode that probably the other person needs some tough love.

[00:16:34] But again, tough love cannot come up without previously getting that level of connection with empathy. So empathy is part of the dynamic between two people or a group of people maybe.

[00:16:51] I am talking one-on-one because that's my experience on about working with empathy but it can happen in groups or in one person to many, many to one person.

[00:17:03] Or many to many. But yeah empathy is a key ingredient but not necessarily we need to keep empathy on around 24-7. And empathy is like in chemistry. There are certain substances or certain reaction that cannot happen by themselves. They need an extra ingredient.

[00:17:28] And empathy is that extra ingredient that sometimes triggers the right reaction. In your professional career as a coach, the work that you do with leaders there's obviously a need to show up with empathy and those conversations.

[00:17:43] And it's nice to start thinking about what conversations would you not part of the gift of empathy is just being there and being someone who can listen and like you said, feel with them to know what it's like to be in that moment with them.

[00:17:59] As you said, it's a very powerful thing to be able to give. But you also said that when you are in that space to be able to be empathetic that it makes you more powerful.

[00:18:12] I was hoping you could we could pull on that string a little bit to understand powerful to do what I did mention that in the context of a coaching conversation. And coaching conversations have the aspiration to a influence the other person, positively.

[00:18:36] And hopefully guiding or leading or inspiring the other person to get the life that they want in a more effective way. More effective way can be faster, more effective way can be more connected with their their own value system.

[00:19:02] Get a more full field overall life that sometimes they are is not evident for them how can they describe it. An empathy is a key ingredient for that impact during the coaching conversation.

[00:19:22] Sometimes those that comes to you begin the conversation in tears and end up the conversation with hacks and smiles and that's an indication that's definitely an indication that the coaching dialogue has provided something of value. And on my end I feel. Powerful.

[00:19:46] Because well that's one of my definition of power I mean I truly enjoy having an impact, positive impact on other I it. What would you say that empathy has taught you now what have you learned from empathy especially when I began my journey to have.

[00:20:12] A grasp on empathy and I start sitting with myself and start respecting myself without judgment and. Being empathetic with my own self was that the way we define ourselves is so.

[00:20:36] Not true and let me say that way I cannot find a different way to the find it and similarly the way that others define themselves is so not true we are.

[00:20:48] All mess up in the way that our own thoughts our own emotions are creating it's own narrative it's own story and sometimes. All the these require to break the spell the spell of words the spell of language, especially language languages such an influencer of all of us.

[00:21:15] All of us in every single second of our lives are living through stories and there is always an narrative and a story on on our minds running.

[00:21:25] Our feelings our emotions our state of mind our posture our way of breathing our methodolism and all that is required to break that story and that fake definition of ourselves is. A grasp of empathy and connection so two connections. Two connections.

[00:21:52] Has such an impact on our lives and the life of others and that's why I consider empathy one of my superpowers because it had an impact on me on my own.

[00:22:04] Journey to develop myself to have my own understanding which is not final and will never be that's part of being alive and that's part of the beauty of this but. I see that I am more relaxed happier today that years ago when I was much more judgment on.

[00:22:27] I am a done the of course not that's again that's the beauty of it. I love how you're bringing in that it's you know still a journey that it's still work that you know it's it's something that will not end so it's a journey with with no.

[00:22:45] No achieving the destination it's just ongoing work, acknowledging the stories that we're telling ourselves or in precise. I see that judgment is just judgment is not the truth breaking that spell. It's like having a compass right that it's it's a constant reminder.

[00:23:12] that the days where you feel trapped in judgment, the days where you cannot be empathetic with yourself or with others are the worst days. And that compass tells you exactly that when you are, when you feel more connected with yourself, more empathetic to yourself, more empathetic to others,

[00:23:38] more in connection, that connection triggers a much positive outlook. Sometimes you don't need to have a conversation sometimes. I don't have words for this and if you push me, I will give you a very poor answer. But sometimes you are in line in

[00:24:03] Starbucks going back to the coffee conversation and you are simply waiting and there is someone in front and you say, hey, let me pay for that. Why you do that? But the effect of that, it's like, I don't know,

[00:24:20] it's such a stupid thing. What has any impact? Or what is an I know that there are some neuroscience here but sometimes you help another person in whatever form. And the impact on you is the result of that connection. When you do a donation, it can be a

[00:24:46] much larger donation but you miss the connection, the feeling is not the same. I'm sorry to say it but that was not an empathetic donation. And the feeling it's on the opposite side. You can have a true connection and making a

[00:25:06] smaller contribution but having a much bigger impact on the other person and you, rather than making humongous donations of contributions without connections. And this is a poor, from an experience at that point in both sides, it looks and it feels

[00:25:26] transactional. What's resonating with me is this idea of you're in line in the coffee shop and the person in front of you, you don't know what their story is. You don't know what their experience is. You don't know what they're going through but yet

[00:25:45] by offering to buy them that cup of coffee. What you're saying is, you're recognizing the humanity and them, you're recognizing their illegitimate person and that you feel the need or the desire, the want to do something nice for them, to try to

[00:26:04] brighten their day. And I could see that being not only a very positive feeling for you but what you're giving them is that level of the recognition, that positivity and the likelihood that that person's going to go out and do something also positive for someone else

[00:26:25] for no immediate obvious gain other than the feeling of recognizing the humanity and someone else. Yes, indeed, and let me give you an example and it's not my own example. It happened to my wife. I was going to the supermarket with my wife and there was a person

[00:26:45] paying and she was struggling to find the coins and the cubans and everything and my wife offered to pay for that. And the person said no and what happened after is that the person told my wife her full story

[00:27:05] but it was the respect that my wife had two faults first on try to help but that was not the help that the other person was in need. The other person was in need to be heard and that totally transformed

[00:27:24] our day. So it transformed my day and then I just witnessed in my wife having that the power is second hand, you know, powerful conversation and it was not so much about what full conversation it was powerful listening, powerful empathy. So switching gears a little bit you shared

[00:27:50] as you were answering one of the earlier questions about empathy one-on-one and empathy in groups and with audiences. You would told me before that you believe your superhero power of empathy is limited to the one-on-one interactions and that it diminishes when you are in groups

[00:28:16] that it's something that doesn't feel like it's part of your superhero strength. This is a show up with the empathy for groups and that can be thinking, what does what does empathy look like in groups? My first thought is one-on-one

[00:28:34] in having respect for that individual and seeing that they're a legitimate person and sitting there feeling with them, get that in a group of six people, 60 people, 600 people to me. That just feels like way too many signals and you could go through

[00:28:53] an overdose of empathy that you can't figure out how to function. And I'm sure I'm not thinking about that correctly, but could you share with me what what you think empathy and groups looks like? Because I'd be interested in understanding that a little bit more.

[00:29:10] By creating an narrative or creating a common energy or creating a ritual, a ritual can be movement, a ritual can be singing together, a ritual can be many things, but they can create a sense of group of identity. And by creating that and being

[00:29:34] connected with that group identity, they can do wonders. Am I able to let no, I see some others that are amazing at that? But me, no, my superpower is more one-on-one when it comes to groups.

[00:29:52] I am the learning mode still. What do you know to be true about empathy? The more of ethic, the more you get rid of of everything that is not authentic and real. The more you get rid

[00:30:15] of all those things, the more empathetic you can be. For that, you need to respect the other, as a legitimate other and that is also one of the main gates to do that is to fill with

[00:30:34] the other. I'm just steeping in the deepness of that that feels very profound. Simple, probably not easy. Not the same thing, it can be there are many things in life that are simple and not easy. What did you believe early on about empathy that you've come to learn

[00:30:54] is not true? Well I had it confusion between different understanding of what empathy really is and the confusion was between feeling pity or sorry for others, sympathy, empathy, compassion and they are all different. These are the description of different things. We feel pity or sorry

[00:31:29] for others when we feel superior, when we feel that we are in a different ball game. We are in a different narrative and this is so not true and there is a lot of judgment there

[00:31:47] on by the way there is zero connection. There is the other person and me over here feeling sorry or pity for the other person. That's zero connection. empathy is not feeling pity, sorry,

[00:32:02] or whatever you want to the other person about the other person. This is when there is no connection. This is about the other. The other definition is sympathy which is feeling for the other person.

[00:32:19] I am feeling for you that hey these are that but again there is no interest. And sometimes we get so confused because this is part of the authorities. I can for example now I can

[00:32:40] have an interpretation that you are paying attention to me. Why? Because I see that your eyesight is focused on the screen, you are smiling. But it's I need to own that this is my interpretation

[00:32:55] and the only way for me to know how your feeling is to ask. When we confuse our interpretations and our judgments for reality, this is the first barrier to move from sympathy to empathy. When we really want to connect with the other person as an authentic and valid

[00:33:24] other, we need to ask and we need to suspend our judgment. That's the gate to empathy. And sometimes empathy can be also overwhelming and can have faces. Sometimes this is more an art

[00:33:43] than a science. But after feeling together with you for a while, I that's my learning and I I own this. Sometimes we need to move from empathy to compassion and that needs to create

[00:33:59] some space that after feeling with you and maintaining the connection, I can move one step forward and by way of creating some space, maintaining the connection and keeping the level of respect,

[00:34:18] I can do something together with you and make us a gestion as is a gestion, not the direction. And that's the flow. So what I learned about empathy was, hey, there is a full range that goes from

[00:34:44] feeling about others, feeling for the other, feeling with the other and compassion. And that spectrum that continuum has its own nuances. And the key gate is that level of connection, that this is that level of suspending judgment. That's why

[00:35:07] the first gate that I think we need to have in mind is to be able to feel empathy to others. The most important learning is to start feeling empathetic with our own self, see with our own

[00:35:22] self suspend judgment. To get to know what is too about our self and then trying to expand that space with the other. Yeah, it's a cliche by cliches or true, most times around

[00:35:35] we have to adjust you know put on our oxygen mask before we adjust the oxygen mask of others. Is it to say, is it to use it as a cliche? Good luck. Having that that's it,

[00:35:49] practice. I fortunately have never been on an airplane where I've had to put on an oxygen mask. I imagine it's terrifying in that moment when you have to do it and it's not as simple as just

[00:36:01] saying, yeah put on your mask and just the straps. Are you ready for the lightning round? Let's go for it. So fill in the blank. Empathy is breathing. Who in your life provides empathy for you?

[00:36:17] My thought there is there a practice or routine that helps you grow nurture or renew your ability to be empathetic. Meditating. A favorite book or movie you recently watched that you would recommend

[00:36:28] that has empathy as a theme. They book that these that has helped me to reframe my warm up is ontology of language. What is one thing that gets in your way of being empathetic?

[00:36:46] Disconnecting with my own self and what is the first step of being empathetic that you suggest to others? As an exercise, I go to go under the sink. Just look at what he's ever been seeing.

[00:37:03] And write five pages about what you saw. Just be curious and stay there. When I think about going under the sink, I start thinking about having to do plumbing as my father and lot taught me anytime you're touching the plumbing that's going to take four times as long

[00:37:23] and involve at least two trips to the hardware store. So you might have just triggered a little bit of an anxiety attack for me and thinking about looking at the sink and what that involves.

[00:37:35] Yeah, that's something you want to start first thing Saturday morning because you might need the whole day maybe the whole weekend working on it. But you weren't saying fixing the plumbing just writing down what you see by the way, I acknowledge that this is a walkie exercise.

[00:37:50] But hey, I love it. I was just putting myself under the sink with a different intention. But the idea of, you know, and it could be anything, right? And it's at exercise of, you know, the five pages of writing down what you saw.

[00:38:08] There is an exercise in another book, Sen and the art of the motorcycle repairment, I think it was. The author was trying to learn how to write and one of the exercises

[00:38:23] was standing in front of a wall and just making a summary about what he was saying was perceiving in the wall. And he was a star, and he couldn't progress. All of a sudden someone who

[00:38:42] was working with him on that just say, why don't you change your focus? And instead of looking at the wall, just take a look at what is miniscule in the wall. And all of a sudden he was writing like

[00:38:56] ten pages about that. So just that change of perception can trigger a totally different reality. You're the second, what word or phrase describes what empathy feels like when it's had a positive impact. Feeling grateful. So if a listener wanted to ask you a

[00:39:17] questioner, follow you, where would you point them to? The social network that I am more active at is LinkedIn. My name is Enrique Martin, just make a connection and let's engage. Well Enrique, like every conversation I have with you, I always learn something. I always feel

[00:39:37] a deep connection with you and I really appreciate you taking time to share with us what you know to be true about empathy. Likewise, pleasure. Good talking to you. Good times on you too.

[00:39:52] I am grateful for the lessons that Enrique shared with us today. I learned that having true empathy for someone is when we can sit with a total respect of the other person without judgment, acknowledging that they are a legitimate person who is creative resourceful and whole

[00:40:09] and feel with them. I learned that empathy is different than pity or sympathy which carries with them a judgment of being superior over the targets of our emotions. And I learned that the journey to be more empathetic with others starts with and continues along the journey

[00:40:26] by being more empathetic towards ourselves to sit with ourselves a total respect for ourselves and to not be judgmental and acknowledging that we are a legitimate person. In other words, a gesture, oxygen mass first before attempting to help others. And as we discussed, it sounds

[00:40:45] simple but it's very easy. Coming out of this conversation, the reflection question I have for myself is what judgment do I have for myself or others when I'm applying my talents and service of them? Am I going into those situations from a position of empathy or compassion?

[00:41:05] Or is it from a position of pity or sympathy? If you're not sure what your super-period power is, one of the easiest ways to figure it out is to ask a trusted friend or colleague. As it heads up

[00:41:16] directly, they're likely to go into ask you what you think their superhero power is so be ready with a response and advance. And thank you all for listening in. If you like this pod, please do us

[00:41:27] a favor and give us a review or click that like button which ever platform you're on. Thank you for doing that. It's the best way to help others discover this podcast. What do you know to be true is a three-blue-pend production? I'm your host Roger Casner. We are

[00:41:42] recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Sequoamish people. To discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people who's land you may be on, go to native hyphenlands.ca. Okay, be well friends.

[00:42:02] Yeah, my high school chemistry teacher would be very proud of me. Yeah, some third-plus years, remembering one word from all of my chemistry lessons. Um, so, did I answer? I want to check. Sometimes I go on and on and I want to, what do they,

[00:42:21] answer the question that you and I speak at this point. I'm not sure. Oh, the question was, Longwitch, he's actually, um, I heard the garage door opening closed.

[00:42:40] Can we do it again? Yes, go for it. Yes, I'm sorry. No, no, no, it's fine. I was trying to think like, is that the laundry machine or is that? Yeah, no, no, it's the one. Yeah,

[00:42:52] pay it as door. Yeah, and it falls. Don't say it as because my case, I have not heard your dogs. But yeah, there was a little grumble there and I'm like, I don't know how to edit that out.

[00:43:04] Yeah, sorry for interrupting. I was going to make a joke about secondhand empathy, like secondhand.