Embracing Courage & Love after Tragedy with April McCormick

Episode Transcript

April: I had a few friends who were like, I'm not quite sure what to say to you and I don't want to say the wrong thing. And I'm like, the fact that you're willing to talk to me about it means that you will have grace every single time you say something wrong, because I say something wrong. There've been times when, you know, I've seen people who have been bereaved, whether it's been a parent or a sibling or, or a child.

And I don't say the right thing. You know, you think that I'm an expert in this, right? But no, we're human. But I think. When you see somebody's intent, like you, you can feel somebody's positive intention. You can give them grace if your wording isn't quite right. And if they're open to it, you can give them some feedback of how they can switch it and change it.

And then again, what a, what a lovely gift to give someone.

Roger: Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the What Do You Know To Be True? podcast. In these conversations, I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill, their superhero power, and the meaningful impact it has on others. The goal is not to try to [00:01:00] emulate or hack our way to new talent. Instead, the intention is to learn more about their experience with their superhero power so that maybe we can learn something about the special talent in each of us and help us on our path to purpose.

This conversation is with April McCormick and her superhero power is Courage gives life meaning five years ago, April and her husband, Kevin, had the worst day of their lives. Every parent's worst nightmare. Their one year old son, Lincoln died suddenly a little over a year ago. April started a podcast, uncomfortable friend to tell her story, to share her experiences. And as she learned to be with her son, Lincoln.

Her courage, vulnerability, grace, joy are on full display in her podcast. And as you'll see here, it's in today's conversation too. And that's because April's what wholehearted living looks like. She is [00:02:00] courage and I'm inspired in and of her. If you're ready, let's dive in.

Roger: Hi, April. It's a privilege and honor to be speaking with you today, and I'm excited and feeling really fortunate to be having this conversation with you. So thank you for joining me here. Oh, such a

April: pleasure. Thank you so much, Roger.

Roger: As I shared with you before, I've been mainlining your podcast for the last couple of weeks and I've become aware of your story. And there's so much that I don't know yet, but what I do know is that it's humbling, to be speaking with you. It's an honor to be speaking with you. And so, I'm, I'm yeah, again, excited. To be having this conversation, your superhero power, power that we're going to be talking about today is courage.

And you have a powerful story of how you came into this talent. One that you've said you would not wish on anyone.

What's important for us to know about how you came into this superhero power of courage.

April: I think like many people, I grew up very traditionally in the sense of, you know, You have to power through things and everything happens for a reason and pull yourself up from your bootstraps because nobody wants to hear your problems.

And I think I was that person that kind of really leaned into, the things that people said you can't do, right? Like, I, I went to school to be an engineer cause like, Oh, women don't really do that. I'm like, well, I'll show you like, I know math and science. Let me go do that. Right. So I think that was really powerful.

And then for a long time, I would continue to just put a lot of effort into my schoolwork, into my, my first job and into all of that. And what I reaped from that was what I put into it. So it made a lot of sense. And I think that framework started to change when I got the opportunity to become a mother.

I had my first son, Lincoln. I put a lot of work into that and those first three months were so humbling. [00:04:00] He had colic. So he cried like forever for the first three, three weeks. I remember being in the shower and crying to be like, what did I do? Our life is so easy because sleep deprivation is, I understand now why the military uses it for, uh, torture tactics.

Absolutely. I get it. It's not who you are at all at that point. But, but then every day was getting better. Every day was getting easier. And then. Something magical happened. I think he was about one and I remember just looking down at him. It was just a normal day. I had looked down at him and he looked like, just like I did as a baby.

And we both had these big brown eyes. My husband has blue eyes, so I have brown eyes. So I'm like, they're my eyes. And, he looked up at me and we locked eyes. And in that moment, That kind of awe inspiring moment, I saw who I really was through his eyes. I saw the love he had for me, the fun we had together.

I saw all these things and I had been beating myself up. I've been [00:05:00] a perfectionist. I've been this achievement oriented person and I was just like, Oh my gosh, like this is amazing and I'm like, how can I talk about myself in such a negative way when you look just like me and you're perfect and it really just unlock something for me.

And so for those next three months, it was just like, it was almost too good to be true. I remember telling my husband like, when's the hammer going to fall? Cause this is like too good. And you know, I went on a, on a work trip, I was leaving and I was not happy about leaving him. I was, I was spending all of my minutes with him, you know, outside of work and on that work trip. He got sick. And he got really sick. My husband took him to the hospital and within an hour he passed away. And I just could not understand that. You know, it's not something that I would ever want anybody to be on or have to discover. It was just, you know, really hard and it's still really hard even though it's been over five years now.

At the very beginning we had a lot of [00:06:00] support. I kind of doubled down on what I knew on the pull myself up from my bootstraps. I don't want people to pity me. Like I, this can't be my story, you know, like I'm going to keep going and keep achieving and all that kind of stuff. And you know, like all these, all these things that I tried to help you use for coping, all these like positive tropes or these, I call it toxic positivity.

It's like almost like too much. And I've about the four month mark. The shock wears off and I don't think you realize when you're in shock that you're in shock, but the shock wear off and most people went back to their normal lives. And that's when the courage really started to come up because I was not the same.

I was never going to be the same. And I hadn't processed all these feelings up until that point and so it just started to like, let out. I was very fortunate to, early on be set up with a grief counselor through Seattle, uh, children's journey program. It's a free resource, which was amazing. I, I don't know [00:07:00] where I would be without them and my counselor Abby, but.

We, I was unpacking all these emotions and, you know, talking to her about all these things that, you know, I would say to like, even my mom and she was like, Oh, well you can't say that or whatever. And I'm like, you know, I'd be mad at intact families. Right. It's not reasonable. It's not like, you know, it's not that I want somebody else to experience it. I just wanted my son back.

I think what happened was the switch just flipped in my head and I'd be at work and I had just become a manager like, like six weeks after he passed away. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to do this, how I'm going to do this. I'm going to figure this out because I'm what's the worst that can happen. I've already had the worst thing that could happen. What can, what can happen? They're going to try to fire me. No worries.

That was my first step into courage because it's just like, not like any, all the things that I'd ever feared before that might've kept me from doing something before. We're gone because I'm like, what's [00:08:00] literally the worst thing that can happen?

I've just survived that so that was my first step into building courage and then there was a second step which I think is so important that It took me a while to be able to share but my Soon after my son died, a couple months later, I was, I got pregnant with my daughter, and that was just a really humbling experience as well, and just like, in a lot of anger and all this other stuff, but so thankful to have something tethering me to this earth.

I remember when she first came around, she, had a couple of, uh, uh, required a feeding tube. And so my husband had gone back to work. I'm home trying to manage all this, all these things. I think her, her, she pulled her tube out and I had to put it back in and like, Oh my gosh, just having to learn how to do that was just really, again, humbling as a parent.

April: And I remember just, there was a day where I was not coping very well. I had no sleep. She had no sleep. She's crying. I'm crying. I call my husband like, you need to come home. And I'm beating myself up about the fact that I'm not perfect for her. And like, What am I doing here? And, and [00:09:00] my son died, you know, so how can I be a good parent?

April: You know, I'm a, I'm not a good parent. And he said this brilliant thing to me, which I'll tell everybody. He said. You don't need to be the perfect mom. You need to be a happy mom. You need to be a sad mom. You need to be a frustrated mom. You need to be a silly mom. You need to be a mom. That's sorry. You need to be like all the things he's like, cause one day she will feel all of those things.

April: And she'll be looking to you to figure out what does that mean? And that just, I think he literally eradicated shame. And that like one statement to me, because now it was no longer like, I'm all these terrible things. And what am I doing? And I'm not good enough for her. It's all these like. Oh, I'm human.

April: And it's the, it's the Maya Angelou quote, right? Like when you know better, you do better, you know? And it's just like, Oh, thank you for teaching me this. And it helped me actually to unpack a lot of the shame [00:10:00] I had around my son's death because there was all these what ifs, right? That I was just like, I should have known better.

April: I should have known this better. And it was just like, and instead I was able to kind of turn that around for myself in times of coping and say, thank you for teaching me this. And so that's kind of those two things really just allowed me to unlock. Courage in both a professional and then a personal, uh, environment.

Roger: I'm trying to think, do I need to tell people about your podcast as a way to learn about how to parent, how to, how to, you know, be courageous, how to be human. And I think it's all those things. Uh, your, your story and the way you tell it and the way you lean into courage, is, is so powerful and amazing.

And I want to say, thank you. Because I think you're teaching me so many things that I could never thank you enough for that, and I'm really excited to be talking about courage with you because you are the definition of courage.

Oddly enough this morning, whether it's the universe or maybe just the algorithm, I saw a Brene Brown video clip this morning, a little clip where she talks about vulnerability is the most accurate measurement of courage. And, in your story, what you just shared with us, through vulnerability, you are that definition of courage.

What have you learned about vulnerability in this time since Lincoln's passing?

April: I love vulnerability. You know, I think I started as I started to kind of express myself and talk more about him and, you know, not so much of his passing. It's mostly just [00:12:00] been my life with him and what I got to enjoy and love. And then all the hard stuff afterward, I think every bereaved parent, like we hate talking about that actual day.

April: It's all the moments before and after, right? Like, and so I think what I learned about vulnerability is that it takes some practice. and it takes courage just to say it the first time, right? The first time you, I launched my podcast. I like, remember I put it out there in the universe and I'm just like, like, it's out there.

April: I guess I could take it back if I wanted to, but it's out there, you know? And so it was kind of like this, like I hyperventilated for like a day and then I got over it. but I think what I learned about vulnerability is that it means everything, you know? And in times when. I share something and people don't receive it well, or they kind of back away a little bit.

April: That's fine. You know, I think that's, you know, at first, you know, you, you're worried about the other person's comfortability. And I'm like, why, why am I [00:13:00] worried about that? I'm uncomfortable all the time. I can make them uncomfortable for a little bit. It's totally fine. Although I learned some phrases that I can tack on to help them feel better about it.

April: but as I became more vulnerable, I ended up getting support from places that I didn't expect it. All my traditional avenues of support, like family and friends and all of that, I expected to be there for me. And after the first few months, you know, it wasn't as much. And it was the random manager that I used to work with and him sitting down and thinking about, gosh, like, what does that pain feel like?

April: And him actually going through a scenario with me and saying like, Oh, when I lost my daughter at the aquarium for four minutes, it was the longest four minutes of my life. You know, and his heart's pounding and he's talking about how he's feeling and the clench in his chest. And then he's just like, is it anything like that?

April: I'm like, yes, that's what it feels like. It feels like that. Until it goes like every waking moment until your heart goes numb and he was just like [00:14:00] whoa But up until that point he was the first person to ever sit with me and do that Everybody else goes I can't imagine I can't imagine, you know, he was the first one that was just like I can try And that was everything.

April: So for all the times when somebody would be like, Oh, you know what? I'll come back. I don't, I don't, you know, I don't want to interrupt you in your moment of weakness or whatever. Or, you know, if people didn't, it didn't land well and they're like, Oh, okay, well, thank you. And they kind of move on. Like for every one of those, I would have maybe for every 10 of those, I'd have maybe one person that would come through in a really meaningful way.

April: And I'm like, that was worth it. That was absolutely worth it.

Roger: And what courage it takes for that one in 10. To come forward and try to try to put into words what it, what it's like to feel with you in those moments, Enrique Martin was on the podcast a few episodes ago, talking about empathy and, and how it requires to suspend judgment of oneself and to feel [00:15:00] with the other person and how, how courageous it is for that one in 10.

Roger: To be able to come and, and try just experiment with you, what, what that feels like. And I really appreciated you sharing that because it, it, it helps me understand what that would be like. It helps me be more empathetic for others. And, and my wife's best friend years ago when she lost her mother, she talked about how people in the office would just avoid her.

Roger: They wouldn't talk to her and how isolating that was for her. And it just made things so much worse. And she just wished people would come up and talk to her and ask her how she's doing, ask her what it feels like, even if they don't know. but that, again, that takes courage to be able to do that. and, and, and I, I really appreciate how you say, like, what, what, what's the worst thing that could happen?

Roger: Like the worst thing has already happened. So, you know, I'm already there, like come up [00:16:00] and come up and talk to me. So it's that having courage with others to feel empathy, to actually feel with them is, is, sounds very powerful.

April: And I think too, I had a few friends who were like, I'm not quite sure what to say to you.

April: And I don't want to say the wrong thing. And I'm like, the fact that you're willing to talk to me about it. Means that you will have grace every single time you say something wrong because I say something wrong there have been times when you know I've seen people who have been bereaved whether it's been a parent or a sibling or or a child and I don't say the right Thing, you know, you think that I'm an expert in this right, but no we're human, but I think When you see somebody's intent, like you, you can feel somebody's positive intention, you can give them grace if your wording isn't quite right.

April: And if they're open to it, you can give them some feedback of how they can switch it and change it. And then again, what a, what a lovely gift to give someone.

Roger: I am falling in love with the word grace. Because I think it's something [00:17:00] that's just evaporated. recently, at least it feels like it. maybe it has something to do with spending too much time on social media.

Roger: Maybe it's, you know, everyone's a little, not whole since the pandemic. Grace feels like it's part of the anecdote.

April: I think so. Absolutely. And funny that you should say that cause it's on my list of, uh, episodes for my own podcast. And if I ever have the opportunity to do a Ted talk and putting that out in the universe, it's about grace.

April: So I'm working on putting that together, but yeah.

Roger: I love it. And I, I have a feeling if you're saying it out loud, it's, it's, it's going to happen. It's just a matter of time.

April: Yeah. So a tip that I give other bereaved parents because it's so once, once your child has passed, if your child's passed, it's so hard to talk about them and it can be, it can make other people, especially other parents, very uncomfortable.

April: So something that I tend to do now is when I say something about him to [00:18:00] another family and like, you can send, so they're kind of like, oh gosh, oh gosh. I'll usually end it with. Thank you so much for giving me the space to speak about him. I so rarely get an opportunity to do that nowadays. And there's something about saying thank you to somebody for letting you talk about them that I think allows them to leave feeling like they've done something good for somebody else, which alleviates a lot of the discomfort they're going to feel.

April: And it stinks because it's not like as the brief person, I should be worried about somebody's discomfort. But I really have enjoyed being able to find a tool to use that allows me to now have more courage in speaking about him and talking about him more often. Now, I won't say it to the person at the grocery store.

April: Right? Like, it's not the time or the place. Right? But if I'm in a Longer uber drive or if I'm working with somebody like when I start with a new team. I introduced that right away I'm like something important you need to know about me is that I have three children and I love talking about all of them And you know in advance, thank you so much for any space You give me [00:19:00] for being able to talk about my son who's passed, you know, and so it just Allows it and it gets the elephant out of the room.

April: And now if I bring them up, they're not like worried about how they should react. It's usually going to be a funny story about something that he did. Right. Or some mistake I made as a parent because we all do. And so again, it makes it really lovely for me to be able to share, but it also gives them, I think, permission to enjoy it and not have to worry about how to react.

April: So big, big tip.

Roger: I, I really appreciate that because I think most people are just worried about, you know, other people's opinions. and how they're going to be perceived. and it does seem, I'm going to use the word unfair. I don't know if that's the right word. It seems unfair that you do have to be worried about other people, and how they're going to receive something, but you, you, you recognize, and you've spoken about how death is not something we talk about very often in our culture and to make it.

Roger: [00:20:00] you know, to, to have to make it okay for someone else doesn't seem like that should be your job, but you know, because most people haven't done the work in this area that they, they, they might need some help. And that's, that's another gift that you're giving people.

April: and it's also not their lived experience.

April: I feel like, you know, uh, what we've seen too, in society, our BIPOC friends and women of color, you know, like it's onus on the person suffering to help others come along with understanding the suffering. Ugh, it sucks. It's a lot of hard work. but in the same way as I say thank you for giving me the space, something that somebody can say if somebody shares something really difficult with you is to thank you for telling me something so, so simple.

April: Thank you for sharing that with me. That took a lot of courage to share that.

Roger: Using that courage word, it's like, and as you said, it gives permission to continue to talk about it later. Mm

April: hmm.

Roger: So [00:21:00] the wording you've chosen for your superhero power has a lot of depth and complexity and layers to it.

Roger: Courage gives life meaning. Could you share a little bit about what's in your heart and what's in your head when you say those words? Courage gives life meaning.

April: I was trying to think about what I really know to be true about courage and in my life, this isn't the first traumatic or tragic thing that I've seen, you know, for myself or my family.

April: Right? And I have seen family members who have gone through something traumatic and their worlds have become smaller because of that. The fear has kind of crept in a little bit and they stopped doing things over time that they used to do. And, you know, my, my, my own grandmother, when her husband passed, you know, she kind of stopped moving.

April: She kind of stopped taking care of herself and she spent her last 20 years kind of confined to a chair [00:22:00] all, you know, and, and that was awful. And so I think what's really important about courage is that you put it out there, you try something. you realize it's not as bad as you probably made up in your head, and then you try again, and you try again.

April: And so instead of your world shrinking, you're expanding it. And for me, you know, Father Richard Rohr said this quote, and I will forever love it, but that which is not transformed is transferred. So if you don't find a way to transform your experiences and your feelings and your emotions into something that I think is more positive or meaning, you know, service to others or sharing your story or just sitting with a friend or whatever it's going to be, you will take it out on yourself or on others.

April: And I've seen that unfortunately take place.

Roger: That was beautiful. Thank you for sharing.

April: Yeah, absolutely.

Roger: So, It was about a year ago. you started your podcast, uncomfortable friend to share about [00:23:00] loss, grief, coping, healing, everything. It, the, each episode is raw and heartbreaking. It's inspiring and, and, and heartwarming.

Roger: You shared your deeply profound love for Lincoln and you'd let us into your world. One that is every parent's worst nightmare. And in the middle of it, You, my friend, you shine and your love for Lincoln shines and your love for Ada and Miles and Kevin shine through it. It actually, when you talk about Lincoln, it reminds me so much of my wife's relationship with our firstborn.

Roger: And, I, I know what, When you talk about those moments, like you, you had that soulmate connection where you're staring into Lincoln's eyes. That's like, I saw my wife do that all the time. With our first, when he was very small and it's, it's, it's beautiful, to, to, to be able to go back and, and feel those [00:24:00] memories again.

Roger: So I really appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. The strength and, of course, the strength and courage to hit record and lay it all out there. I'm in awe and feel privileged to learn what love, loss, and life, yeah. with unending grief and abundant love and joy can be like, and that's how I feel like your episodes are obviously a, a, a big fan.

Roger: and it took courage every week to hit that record button. Tell us about your decision to share your story and your processing of love and healing and about what you had hoped by creating the podcast.

April: Yeah. I think initially I set out to. I remember talking, I had a coach at work, which I think was really beneficial.

April: I will, I love coaching. I think coaching is great. That's why I kind of went into coaching too, but I had a coach at work and I remember I wanted to write a book for so long. I'm like, I want to write this book. I want it to be a book. [00:25:00] And I couldn't, I just couldn't sit down to write it. Like it just, my head goes so much faster than my fingers could type.

April: And I don't know, it just wasn't working out. And then I tried this. Speech to text app thinking like, Oh, well, maybe that will help me write the book. Right. And then I realized, well, if I'm willing to just talk about it, like, why don't I just try a podcast and see what happens? So I started at not really knowing where it would go or how many episodes I would do.

April: I remember I told my coach, I'm like, I'm going to start out with anger. Cause like, that's the thing that nobody wants to talk about. And I want to do that. She's like, well, you might want to start off with your story because that's probably an important contextual aspect of it. I'm like, all right, but then the second one's going to be anger, which it is.

April: and I remember I just wanted to put it out there because I'm like, so many people are afraid to be. angry or they don't want to show their emotions because we don't want to be labeled the angry, bereaved mother. And I think through sharing my story, I [00:26:00] realized that's not my truth. I'm a bereaved mother who's loved her child and I'm experiencing anger and or all these other things, right?

April: And so that's what allowed me to realize that. Oh, that's who I really am. I'm a loving mother. And it took me back to that awe I felt in looking into Lincoln's eyes. And I'm just like, Oh, I'm this, I'm that, you know, I'm not these, these labels that I gave myself, right. That I thought society was giving me that might even think that.

April: And so that was really important to me. And then I also wanted to give other bereaved parents hope. I think, you know, I, I went to, you know, the Internet and to some other, uh, group sessions to try to find some hope after he died. We got really fortunate and being connected with another family who was 7 months further along on their journey than we were and.

April: They give us so much, like, really just good advice about grief and how to handle that and how to process that and when to rest [00:27:00] because that's really just, and resting doesn't mean that you're forgetting them. It's just, it's a really important aspect of this for longevity's sake, but I remember the first time they told us that they were pregnant and I just felt like, you're telling me there's hope.

April: I just wanted to know that there was hope. There are a lot of people out there experiencing grief that said, well, now your life's over. You're going to, you know, this is going to be the rest of your life. And I'm like, I cannot bear to spend the next 60 years thinking that this is my life. and so I wanted to give that hope to others when I launched the podcast, I wanted to give them vocabulary because so often I would be thinking something in my mind and my thoughts are all over the place and I couldn't process like what it meant, but then I would listen to a book or a podcast and hear somebody say, just a few words that summed up the craziness in my head.

April: And I was like, Oh, now I can actually explain myself. And so I do that through my episodes. I use the vocabulary that I've learned to help others say, yes, that thing, that's exactly what I'm [00:28:00] experiencing, or that's what I'm thinking. And then along the way, you know, I remember the first time I ever got my first email from somebody I didn't know.

April: And it was just the most amazing thing to think that somebody else had listened to this. They had found it somehow because I'm not good at marketing and that they, it resonated with them. It felt really, really good. And I realized it's not just a tool for them, but also with the busyness of having, you know, my daughter and son, they're four and a half and two and a half.

April: So they, they keep me hopping. Having a podcast gave me a couple hours a week. To really set aside time for Lincoln, you know, that, that got really hard at the beginning when you're having another child. And, and I got to have a year of grieving him while we were waiting for Ada to arrive. And it was a lot harder to fit grief in with, with a baby, with, with being another parent again and doing that.

April: And so while I think it's beneficial for others, and I'm so thankful that you think that too, [00:29:00] I'm realizing it's allowing me to set aside that time to kind of be with him.

Roger: That's so lovely. it's, it's a, it's a lovely way to honor him to, cherish what, what he means to you, what, what, the moments that you had together.

Roger: And I love when you share the conversations that you continue to have with him. and, and yeah, whenever, whenever you, you talk about those conversations and you share, I hope I'm making you proud. And he's saying back. Yeah, mama, you're making me proud that, Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful to witness.

Roger: and, and the hope is such a, it's another keyword. I think we're going to go through, uh, a day of, of amazing words. So grace was the first one. Hope. The next one and my understanding of hope, being defined as like a sense of having a plan and [00:30:00] agency that, that idea that you could actually carry out that plan.

Roger: it seems, it seems so powerful of a gift that your friends gave you, but I wonder, you know, when, you know, other people who were not bereaved parents, if they, did they try to give you hope and was it, Was it, is it received the same way or does, does someone else have to, you know, do you have to believe that someone else has gone through, that experience to be able to give hope in that moment?

April: so this is always a hard thing to talk about and I'm very vulnerable about it, but for somebody that hasn't gone through it, it's a really difficult and very delicate process. And unless you've had some other pretty traumatic events that you've kind of processed and whatnot, it'd probably be really hard for it to hit home.

April: I will say, I honestly, honestly believe as, as humans, we can get through all of the worst things about [00:31:00] life if we are able to find a community of others who have experience, something like that. That's the gift that the journey program gave me. And they also introduced me to other families too. So we had this kind of cohort of other families with similarly aged children, you know, slightly different reasons for passing, but it, it was so helpful.

April: And for years, you know, we would talk to each other about all of those things. And as each of us got pregnant again, as each of us had our second child after loss, you know, processing all those feelings, like, It's so, so important. Now I can say some of those things that sound like a normal parent, you know, you know, if, if school's closed and I'm having to work, you know, have my kids home as I'm working, I can, I can be around other parents that are experiencing that, but I couldn't do that for a long time, unless I was around somebody that was bereaved.

April: I just was not comfortable because I was too worried about managing other people's Feelings and, and it was, yeah, it was just really, really hard because especially with child loss, you know, just so many people, [00:32:00] that's a very uncomfortable loss for people to think about. I didn't even think it would happen or it could happen really, even though it had been in my family, but it would have been different kinds of circumstances, right?

April: Nothing like this.

Roger: You know, as, as people who want to be empathetic with others, and want to feel with others, there's, there's a little bit of, it makes me think about the saying is, you know, comparison is the thief of joy. I think in this context, comparison is also the thief of meaning. And I'd love to get your thoughts on that, but you know, trying to understand, and, and, and talk with and be supportive of, of someone who's gone through something so, so, Heartbreaking.

Roger: I, I could, I could understand being in your shoes thinking, no, I, I, you know, don't, don't try to give me hope. Don't try to give me encouragement because you, you haven't been there. And when I think about comparison, I, I know, [00:33:00] I know, after, you know, suffering a trauma, at least in, in my experience, I, I was told, not to, not to compare, and yet I think comparison is also how we make meaning, and, and, and understand.

Roger: And I know that's a little bit of pretzel logic based on what I just said, but, like I know I, I, I have a sense of how hot a ghost pepper is because I've had a jalapeno, but then not the same thing.

April: Yeah,

Roger: so that idea of comparison being the thief of joy. I think we all can agree to that one But comparison can comparison also be the thief of meaning.

Roger: What do you think about that?

April: I think sometimes I mean right at the very beginning when people talk about like They've lost their dog or something like that was really difficult because to me that didn't feel like very much a comparison But I think it's also really important to understand like the timeline of certain things [00:34:00] I was not in the business of making meaning of my son's death for the first year or two.

April: Was not gonna happen. In fact a book that I really love is actually David Kessler's Meaning, you know book where he kind of adds something to the the grief process, right? And I thought it was so important But not something that if I would have read in the first couple years that I would have been okay with I probably would Have wanted to give that person the middle finger whoever gave me that book But it took about two three years and I'm like I can see this I can see this now and now when people tell me about the passing of their, their parent or their dog or whatever, I, I'm deeply sympathetic and empathetic because I can understand what it means to lose something that's so important to you and I really bonded over a coworker who had lost her sister.

April: And, you know, I remember she said to me, like, you've never made me feel like my losses were less than yours. She's like, even though in my head, I tell myself that and I'm like, you've lost your person to like, there's an aspect of that that I understand, [00:35:00] you know, and so it took, I think the conversations and me being able to say.

April: Yes, this is the right time or no, this is the right, not the right time to tell me about your dog. Like, you know, setting up a boundary, which Brene Brown taught me about. It, it took creating some of those boundaries before I could actually start breaking down my walls and realizing like, okay, like if somebody's saying that they're trying to empathize with me, they're trying to somehow compare that jalapeno to the ghost pepper.

April: Right. And then I'm like, now I can appreciate that. But timing is really important with that, I think, and, and I agree, like, comparison judgment is the thief of, of joy. Right? I think it's really important to hold something. Important to you and work toward that and you need to have a judgment to figure out, am I making the right steps towards or away from it?

April: So I think it's a very necessary aspect of who we are as humans and people. I think it's when it's used to say, yours is not as bad or mine's better or like, that's where it falls flat for me. That's where I feel like, okay, this is not. The right usage of this. So [00:36:00] absolutely agree. I think it's important, but it can also strip away.

April: Meaning very quickly if used in the wrong context,

Roger: the being able to pull apart, the difference between comparison to try to judge versus comparison to try to understand it's got to seem like a very thin line at times. Yes.

April: And you know, I'm sure, yeah, you're just bringing up a moment where, so I mentioned in my intro story about how, I was on a plane when my son passed away, you know, at the hospital, they had asked my husband to, get somebody there to help support him.

April: And we had two lovely friends that stayed with him until I got home. And I remember soon after we were, I was having dinner with, with one of them and we were talking and she's just like. You know, I've got a lot of pain from what I went through just being with my husband and it's such a fine line because at the [00:37:00] time, again, I wasn't like, kind of there for it to understand that, but looking back on it, I'm like, wow, I cannot believe the humanity and the compassion that they had to just sit with him and to be with him to make sure he just wasn't alone.

April: You know, and that is so difficult on people and people are going to use that in different ways for their own life and making their own decisions. And yeah, it's, it's such a fine line because I needed my grief to be, recognized first and more at the time. Cause it was so soon after, but. I missed out on her demonstration of love for us, my husband and our family.

Roger: When I'm listening to your podcast, when you talk about the kindness of strangers. In the first episode, when you talk about the airline [00:38:00] employees who, helped you get on the next possible flight home and just the, the ones that, that were here when you arrived back in Seattle and just took care of you and, and, and, and whatnot.

Roger: Those are the moments in your podcast where, I, I. I actually have moments of where I need to, collect myself. I was driving one day listening to your, your first episode. And when I heard that part of the story, I had to pull over. it was not safe to continue to drive. And it's, it's just beautiful that, you know, when people are actually, you know, being, you know, have in some ways, courage to be able to take care of you and just recognize the humanity, and, and, and did take care of you in those moments.

Roger: that. I don't know. I, I don't know why those moments were, were, were hitting me as hard as they did as other parts of the story. but it does, I think it gives a little bit of, you know, [00:39:00] faith, a little bit of, realization that there are people who will take care of you in your worst moments.

April: Yeah, it's the, it's the whole reviving your faith in humanity kind of thing.

April: And unfortunately, I think because negative news sells so much, we just don't see it, but I think it happens so much more than we even know. And it's happening at such a. For lack of a better word, an ordinary level. It's an ordinary everyday level. It's not this Hollywood level extravagant thing, right? And so I think we often just don't expect it or don't see it or maybe we're not putting ourselves out there to be able to experience it.

April: Because somebody will say something somewhere that 1 in 10 will say something or do something. And so, um. I think there's, there's a fear of not wanting to show that aspect of our, that shadow aspect of ourselves, right? To that, again, we miss out on the opportunity to connect and to see the humanity. I think if you look at any situation, there's so many more people running towards something than running away from it.[00:40:00]

Roger: And just like Mr. Roger said, look for the people running towards versus a running way.

April: Oh, he's a profound man. Yeah.

Roger: In your day job, you're a manager and you also recently became a certified coach. Do you have an example of a challenge that you had the courage as a manager or coach, to lean into your courage, that helped unlock that challenge?

April: Yeah. When I was thinking about this, I was thinking about 2020 and that we are here was a really tough year for my company and for the world. And, I had just like that January, I just transitioned into it being a manager of a new team. So getting to know them. And then we go into a lockdown scenario that March, I had had, 26 employees under my purview and our company ended up doing a lot of Massive layoffs.

April: And thankfully the people that we lost on my team were from a voluntary [00:41:00] retirement, but I lost 11 people on the team that

Speaker 3: year. And

April: I, we had more work coming in than we had ever had before. And so we had to figure out how to balance that and work with that. And I remember, you know, my team had been working just so many hours and I'm like, we have to figure out a way to do this better.

April: You know, we had been working on like a. 24 by five schedule, 24 hours a day for five days a week and having the weekend off. And there was a lot of pressure from our programs to go 24 seven, even though that wouldn't always make a lot of sense. And I remember the holidays were rolling up and around that first week of November, every year, like I'm already over it.

April: I'm ready for the new year. Like I'm done. I need a break kind of a thing. And we're getting to, to the Thanksgiving timeframe and they're like, okay, so we're going to be working on Thanksgiving break. Cause my company had four days off. And I said, you know what? No, we're not. We're not working the 4 days and they were like, excuse me.

April: Like, they're like, no, but okay. Well, we won't work Thanksgiving, but we'll work, you know, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I'm like, no, we're not going to work. And they're like, we're not going to [00:42:00] work Thursday or Friday, but we'll work Saturday, Sunday. And I said, no, they will take the 4 days off. And it was just my team, all the rest of the teams that were supporting this test.

April: We're willing to come in and work, I actually called 1 of the other managers from, like, the other, the, the test director kind of area. And I said, are you with me on this? She's like, absolutely. So she doubled down on that. And I think you'll end up finding, um. Opportunities for you to be courageous when you define your own personal values for me, family is on the top of my list of my own personal values.

April: And so this concept of working the 4 day holiday weekend. I'm like, it, it was banging up against my value of family and I'm like, I just, I can't. I can't do it. These people have been working, you know, my team has been working 60 hour weeks for like forever, like they need the four days off. And so, I told my team to book their trips and do their things and not worry about the consequences.

April: It's on me. Cause I'm the one making the decision. I had my, you know, I called my manager and my director to let them know what I was doing. And they all agreed with me, uh, in a one on one [00:43:00] conversation. And then when the program would call my manager and my director and say, like, She doesn't understand the importance of this program or whatever.

April: Right. And they're like, they're like, we'll talk to her about a plan. We'll come up with a plan. Right. I'm like, in this moment, guys, you had to tell them that you agree with my plan. Like, come on anyway. So we decided not to take the four days off. We took the four days off and my lead came back and he was just like, April, he was like, thank you for the first time, like in months, he didn't have to sleep next to his phone for four days, because typically if something happened on the third shift, they would call him to help troubleshoot.

April: And like, you know, I don't know what it's like to be called him like that for work, but I do know what it's like to have a baby wake me up at 3 AM every day for a feeding. And so I can understand the break in your sleep schedule and what that can do to you. But I was trying so hard to talk to the program managers about the fact that if they don't get rest, if we don't have time off.

April: We are not going to make good decisions. We're going to make mistakes. We're going to have nonconformances that will delay the schedule. [00:44:00] We need the time off. And so we came back from Thanksgiving. My team felt so refreshed and they were so proud that they had a manager that was willing to stand up for them and do that.

April: And then we ended up finishing right before the Christmas break. And that was really lovely because they were trying to start pressuring us to work Christmas. And I'm like, we're not doing that either. If that's what comes down to it, but I'm like, but we have a plan. And as long as we execute to that plan, we won't, we'll be done before then.

April: And we were. So, I mean, I don't, I don't know what it would have happened to me if we didn't meet that schedule. Maybe they would have been put out on some sort of manager exile where you have zero direct reports and you're on a special project. But, but that's one of the times I was, it hit my personal value of family and I'm like, no, we're not doing this.

April: And I was willing to stand up and say that. And they're the consequences of that

Roger: and I, there's so much, so much in that story that I'm sure your employees, appreciated so much. So grateful for having that time off that they [00:45:00] probably worked maybe a little harder. In that time between Thanksgiving and Christmas to be able to hit that Christmas deadline.

Roger: and I'm sure there's longer lasting impacts of you standing up with courage, to go against, you know, the, the everything else saying, yeah, we will be working the four days of, of this holiday to say, no, not, not going to happen. And I want to ask about your framework for courage and you just mentioned about values, but everyone else has, you know, different, different values.

Roger: Tell me a little bit about your, your framework or process. when you notice there's moments that this is when it's time to lean in the courage, what, what are those steps that you take?

April: Yeah, I think it's really difficult to have courage about everything. Right. And exhausting. We just can't do that.

April: But I, I believe at any given time, we have 2 to 3 personal values that we're really leaning into and they're going to change over time early in my career before I [00:46:00] had children. Achievement was really 1 of my personal values. I wanted to achieve something important and not just, Oh, I made a metric for metric sake or whatever I wanted to do something that's going to tell a story that's going to help us get better.

April: Right? I was very strategic about that. But I think defining values is number 1, you have to know what you value because if you're just trying to be courageous for something that you don't have a deep rooted feeling in, it's going to come across as inauthentic and people are going to know it. I think 1 of the easiest ways to define that value is to figure out or think about times when something just did not sit right with you.

April: Mhm. Whether you spoke up in the moment or not to me that that working those 4 days, that family time, I'm like, this is not right to me. This is not right to me. And I knew that it was violating my, my family. Another 1 of mine is, is, personal growth is really important to me. And, you know, there were times when I was talking to my employees about, what's that next step?

April: What do they want to do? My manager got really mad at me. She's like, you're pushing people away from our team and I'm like. No, I, I, I think I'm trying to align people to what they really want to do. [00:47:00] And, and that's my goal, right? So we didn't see quite eye to eye, but it's because that was my personal value, right?

April: And I was willing to accept those consequences. So first defining the values are really important. Second, identifying where the fear is. I think everything we do is either out of love or fear, and sometimes it's hard to tell them apart, but identifying what are you afraid of? What what's the thing that's holding you back from being able to speak up or to say something or to do something different.

April: Right? I think that's a really important aspect because if you don't label it, it's kind of hard to know. And I think a lot of the times when we actually say it out loud, it's not as scary as it was in our mind becomes just like dark monster in our head until it's out loud. And then it's just like, oh, well, that's you can weigh the consequence and be like, well, that's not so bad.

April: That's fine. I can I'm willing to gamble that. Right? I think seeking different opinions is the 3rd. Aspect of that framework that I think is really important. my son earlier this year miles had to get ear tubes Uh in January and I [00:48:00] remember they they called and they were like, well, we have a 5 30 p. m Appointment and i'm like like he can't eat for 12 hours before that.

April: He's like two How is he gonna understand that like I was just like, oh gosh, that means i'm gonna be home with him all day He's gonna be crying. He's gonna be annoyed with me I'm sitting here or whatever and i'm like, I don't know if it's the right thing to do He's gonna be uncomfortable And so I said, you know, let me think about it.

April: I'll call you back I go downstairs and I talk to my husband about it And I'm like, I don't know what to do here. Like he's going to be miserable. I'm going to be miserable. I know I'm not going to be a good parent trying to cope in that environment all day. And he sat there and he's like, April, I think you're waiting for a better option.

April: What if there's no better option is like what? And so I was like, he's like, you know, you say love and fear. What does love look like in this situation? And I'm like, it's getting him what he needs to, you know, be healthy and happy. Right? Regardless of the discomfort. Right? So I went back. I called and left a message.

April: I said, you know what? We'll take the 530, appointment. [00:49:00] And she calls me back a half hour later. And she's like, well, because you said that you would take the 530. She's like, I actually had gotten somebody to switch out there. 8 30 AM. And I'm going to give it to you because you all, you offered the 530.

April: And so I feel like that was like almost the universe being like, okay, April, like, you know, you conquered your love versus fear conflict here. So I'll give you this one. Right. So it wasn't as bad and it was amazing. And I can't believe she got in so fast. The last aspect of the framework, I think it's just be mindful of timing.

April: You know, I think, we have to choose our battles, you know, people say, don't go to sleep angry, you know, with your partner and whatnot, go to sleep angry 9 times out of 10. It resolves when I wake up because it's really just me coping and lack of sleep and all that kind of nonsense. Most of the time we want the same thing.

April: Right? So, I think timing is really important. I think having some sort of plan. You know, you can't just say, no, like, I, I said, no, in that scenario with my employees working the holiday break, because we had a detailed plan of how we were going to execute the program. It wasn't because I didn't have a plan.

April: I was just saying, no, nilly [00:50:00] willy. and I think you need to be prepared for the resistance that you might receive, because that can throw you off as well and ensure that you're in a, in a calm place for that. And that timing too, is the. I think of grief and, and trauma and whatnot and, and coping as like a 10 point scale when I get a lot of sleep and I'm feeling really good and I get outside and some fresh air, you know, I'm at a 10 with coping.

April: And so it's okay, whatever comes my way when I have my lack of sleep and my kiddos are screaming at me and telling me, you know, they want the 3rd different thing for breakfast or something like that coping mechanism starts knocking down a little bit. So, you know, not the time, I think, for me to be courageous.

April: You know, set boundaries, you know, have the, uh, go fall back on those set boundaries, but timing is really important.

Roger: What I see as a through line in all of this is really the, that, that idea of knowing yourself, like knowing your values, knowing that you need to actually seek the opinions of others where you [00:51:00] might be acting unilaterally as well as, this question and you know, you're asking yourself, is this decision being made out of fear or love?

Roger: And then the idea of like timing and really a plan, like, do I, do I have the rest? Do I have, do I understand what steps take next? Have I done the work, to be able to take this on? yeah, I think someone, someone famous said something about knowing thyself, probably goes into that, uh, knowing when to be courageous and maybe when to, when to take a pass until it's a better time when you are courageous.

Roger: And I think it's part of the story you just told about, telling your employees that they're not working over Thanksgiving. what's the impact of being courageous on others?

April: Well, first and foremost, I don't know any better way to build trust. I mean, that's the, the courage and the vulnerability together, right?

April: Like to be able to say that and to [00:52:00] be like, Hey, I could be wrong, but I'm going to do what's best for my people. Right? Like it built trust with them because they know that they could come to me. They, they knew that regardless of what it is, that I could help them fix it. And I wasn't going to say, Oh, because this person's taking vacation, we're not working.

April: No, it was, I'm making the decision. So that building trust is really important. I think when you're able to be courageous, it also helps to empower others to do so. Leads to more empathy and compassion. It's something that I'll be talking about my podcast too, with the fact that I think as we move up the chain, we, we noticed, and we've known this for a long time now in higher leadership circles.

April: There's this lack of empathy and compassion in a very, um. Meaningful way that's being demonstrated to employees and individuals that really need to see it, right? That environment is just not there. And I think impact of courage is allowing for that to kind of happen. And that's what creates psychological safety.

April: It's so important because none of us are doing our best work when we're in fight flight or [00:53:00] freeze or phone. Or any of those things, right? Like, we're going to make bad decisions. We're going to do things that require a lot of rework or having to do a root cause corrective action on something because we, we messed up when I gave my employees the chance to kind of have that space and that time off.

April: My 1 employee came back and he devised a plan to do like, 12 hour shifts instead of the 8 hour shifts that they had. They did 2 shifts a day. They were able to do it for 7 days a week. They each got to have 1 week, 1 weekend day off. So they could be with their families and they only worked 4 or 3 days a week.

April: So this way, they had like 3 or 4 days off in a row every other week. And he was able to help us reduce our overtime for each person from 16 hours a week to 4 hours. That was amazing. So we were able to accomplish way more in a shorter period of time. People were way more refreshed. They got multiple days off in a row.

April: They were like, yeah, this is great. Let's do this, you know, so we were able to be more creative because we created that psychological safety to know that they had their back. I think [00:54:00] We'll never know the impact of fully of what courage can do, but it's, I never would have come up with that thought or that plan.

Roger: I think it's really hard to pull apart courage and vulnerability. Right. It's, it's to be, to be courageous. I think we, you know, if you, you watch a couple of movies growing up, you get this idea of like, really just, you just swallow your feelings and you just go in, but, but you're, you're calling out the no, it's just the opposite.

Roger: That you actually have to lead with the heart that you have to, uh, be vulnerable in order to develop that, to, to show up with courage and, and Brene Brown are, are a favorite researcher when it comes to shame and vulnerability, has the opportunity to talk in front of, uh, military operators and, and, and officers.

Roger: And, and I love, she, she retells the story about asking. asking this group of, of, I believe it's Naval officers about like, [00:55:00] Hey, when, when does vulnerability show up in your work? And they're like, It's in everything we do. which really I think goes, goes against maybe some of those, uh, you know, maybe it's Western themes of, of what it takes to be courageous, but leaning into vulnerability.

Roger: And then you were just telling about the story of by you being courageous, others were able to come up with new ideas of how to work. and Brene will say that it's, you know, it's only through vulnerability. Do we get creative creativity, innovation, and change.

April: Absolutely And what do all of our, our corporate world say, right?

April: They want those things. They want creativity. They want innovation. They want change. They want to become more profitable. But until they kind of put their money where their mouth is, I think it's going to be really difficult. And I think we're in a tipping point now. We're seeing it. There's a lot of, a lot of businesses looking for employees.

April: And I think people have more choice now. And I think after the pandemic, I think the pandemic allowed a lot of [00:56:00] the, the silver lining of that or the gift of the pandemic. for how difficult it was, is that I think it gave two years of people thinking about what are their values? What do they really care about?

April: You know that, that, I mean, I think I had a jumpstart on that, but yeah, it doubled down on the fact that I'm like, yep, family is definitely what I think is important and my own and growth and courage, you know, those are the things that I think are truly important.

Roger: And you talked about the impact of trust, like being courageous leads to trust.

Roger: And it made me think about, uh, Stephen M. Our Covey's book, the speed of trust, where he breaks down trust being the four elements of trust being intent, integrity, competence, and results. and integrity. I think we will, you know, common definition of integrity is, do we do what we say we're going to do, but I like how you, you unfolded it with the idea of values.

Roger: Are we acting in accordance to our values? And if we use our values as that, [00:57:00] you know, guideposts, we will always act with integrity, which is the building block to, to one of the four. To trust, and the quickest way to violate trust, the author talks about is a violation of character. So either a violation of integrity or intent.

April: I love that. And, you know, in coaching a senior manager at work, you know, he was telling me about a situation where, he was having a really hard time with something that he was told. And I was just like, what core value is this violating for you? And he had never thought of it that way. He was just like,

Speaker 3: Oh,

April: and you know, it took him a few minutes.

April: And then he's just like, you know what? I think it's. I think it's, you know, it's a lack of integrity. It's the saying one thing and doing something different because like, I'm really having a hard time with that. I'm like, well, I mean, that sounds like you would have a hard time with that.

Roger: That's such a powerful question about what's the, you know, what's the [00:58:00] unmet need or what's the value that this is in conflict with?

Roger: Because I know for, for myself, uh, whenever, you know, those moments when I've been the most torqued at work, has been when there's been a violation of one of my values.

April: I think most people and a great definition that I heard, I help, uh, volunteer with Seattle Children's and one of the things that they've said is conflict is, uh, unmet need.

Roger: Hmm. there's an episode that's coming up. it's been recorded. It hasn't been released, uh, where I talked to someone who teaches. Conflict resolution and, and, she actually uses the words when someone presents a conflict, it's entrusting you with their unmet need. Oh, yes. A hundred percent. Yeah. So April, What Do You Know To Be True?about courage [00:59:00] giving life meaning?

April: Well, I know that courage requires vulnerability. I know we're beating that, that horse pretty, pretty well today, but it, it does. I know that courage comes in all sorts of forms. It's very diverse. It's, it could be physical, moral, emotional. There's, there's no set way to, to perform courage or to do courage.

April: I think it'd be cultivated. It's not something that's set that we have in ourselves and some people have it and some people don't. I think it's the, the first step is going to be the hardest, right? To try it, see what happens, like reflect on it, kind of keep going. but I think it can be built over time and through different scenarios.

April: And then I think, you know, what I know to be true about, about COVID 19. About courage is that sometimes it requires sacrifice on your behalf. So, you know, [01:00:00] telling program directors that we're not working the holiday break, like could have had a significant impact on my career. And still might who knows but But I was willing to make that sacrifice because it was that important to me I think as I do it I recognize points in myself where i'm Doing things that are in line with my values and in love and I can feel good about that And I asked lincoln i'm like buddy like are you proud in these moments, right?

April: these little itty bitty moments, you know where i'm Dancing with my kiddos, which I never thought i'd ever do again after he died because it was one of my favorite things to Do with him and at the beginning I didn't I couldn't even listen to music I just couldn't like it just hurt too much and then the first time I did it I was just weeping afterward and I'm like, I hope I'm making you proud like this is really hard You know and I kept doing it and kept doing it and now I'm not even thinking twice and I'm just having so much fun And I'm seeing the joy in my kiddos faces when I'm dancing with them and we're joking and laughing and my daughter and my we're big Taylor Swift fans So my daughter and I sing to her songs all the time and it's just so fun, you know, [01:01:00] and uh, It was really tough to do that for a while.

April: And so I think that's just, again, it's, it's this kind of sacrifice. I sacrificed my comfort in that moment to do something that was just very me and it allowed for a connection.

Roger: I can recall dancing with my kids. And we used to have this silly, silly, routine whenever Elevation by U2 would come on. where we're just bouncing around the room and then in the interlude in the middle of the song, you know, a kid would be get, get lifted up in the air and, what's funny is when I was at the concert, A couple of weeks ago, that was, there was two songs.

Roger: I actually brought out the phone and did the video on, and I don't know if you've been, if you've been to a concert recently, but like people are on their phones the whole time recording the whole thing. And it's like,

April: No. Yeah.

Roger: Really? Like, you could have watched this on YouTube if you wanted that. But two songs [01:02:00] I videoed.

Roger: One was Elevation and one was, uh, Where the Streets Have No Name, which is a very meaningful song for me, which I actually think is about awe. I think that song is about being in awe of, uh, a different experience than what we're having. So, and I was just thinking about that thought today. A song that I've been singing my lungs out on for, you know, 36 years or whatever.

Roger: I, I'm, I'm having a new relationship, because of the, you know, thinking about on getting ready for, for today's conversation. So thank you for that.

April: I love how you bring up songs because songs, I think, have such a different meaning after you've been through traumatic events or, or any events, right?

April: Like, as you live through life, they have so much more meaning. They're so much more profound. I remember one day, just like crying in the car, listening to, Green Day's Good Riddance. There's a section that's, don't ask why it's not a question, but an answer [01:03:00] learned in time. And I'm like, Oh, yes. Like, I'm like, Oh, it's different.

April: Like it's different now. And I'm just like crying. Like, yes. Cause I, I don't know why this happened, you know, like I'll never know. I don't think it's for a reason, you know, for me, it was about making meaning from this because the worst thing possible would be, it'd be for nothing in my eyes, like I can't have this horrible thing happen.

April: And it'd be for nothing like that doesn't serve me. It won't serve Lincoln, you know? And so. I feel like at some point, when we get to meet again, because I have a very strong belief that that's going to happen, you know, I'm going to make him proud and I'm probably not going to care about why it happened.

April: That's why it's like a, an answer you'll learn in time, right? Like, it won't really matter at that point because we'll be together again. But, but while I'm waiting for that day, I, I'm making him proud. At least that's what I'm trying to do.

Roger: I believe that, you know, you [01:04:00] are making him proud. And I know. I believe, I believe that there are so many gifts you're giving from this experience that it's not, it's not a question.

Roger: You are already doing the work. you know, whether it's the podcast, whether it's, you know, the, the, the group conversations you have with other bereaved parents, whether it's the volunteer work that you're doing, at Seattle Children's, how it's, it's how you show up in your, your role as manager and really leaning into courage.

Roger: You're, you. You're doing the work and what I also, what I know to be true is you're not done. You're going to continue to do this and have even, even greater impact with so many other people, you know, being, whether it's being a role model for vulnerability and courage or something else, when, when you hit that Ted stage, uh, when you write that book, There's so much [01:05:00] more, that, that you're going to continue on your journey and it's, it's, it's going to be wonderful to witness.

April: Well, thank you very much. Yeah. It's, uh, do the work and trust the process.

Roger: Is there any other choice? I mean, you talked about making, making decisions out of love and fear. which I actually heard that episode this weekend. and like you're going to continue to choose love, which is, I'm sure what's going to drive a lot more of that activity.

Roger: I know that to be true. So what did you believe early on about courage that you've come to learn is not true?

April: Ooh, a couple. One, that people that were courageous didn't fear anything. They didn't have fear. No, I can. I, I was really afraid of needles growing up as a kid. And, uh, tomorrow [01:06:00] I have a blood donation, you know, so I've, I've clearly I've gotten over my fear of needles.

April: Cause I'm like the, the greater good of donating blood, uh, is way more important than my silly fear of needles. Right. But you couldn't tell me that for a long time. and so, you know, it doesn't mean that you're not afraid of something. Right. Like, I think a lot of the time I thought that courage had to be dramatic or heroic, because that's what we see in movies, right?

April: That's, that's what we've witnessed. That's what we hear on the news, you know, so, it could be something really, really small and it could be, you know, being assigned. Like one, too many tasks at work and, and telling your boss, you know, that you need some help and reprioritizing them or, you know, taking something off your plate.

April: You know, that could be really challenging. That's really courageous. And it's a really small thing, you know, but it can mean a big difference for you and your ability to set boundaries. I thought the courage was fixed. Like a fixed trait that, you either had it or you didn't, or you had it all the time.

April: And like, [01:07:00] it definitely whacks and wanes depending on the situation, right? Not everything calls for courage. You know, sometimes it's okay to be a little easy, although those times seem to be fewer and fewer nowadays. I wonder if you start doing it, you start leveling up throughout your lifetime and it's like, Oh, just when I thought I got it, like I got like a week of rest.

April: And now it's another, another opportunity, right? As we say, sometimes I thought courage was reckless or impulsive. Especially when you don't have a plan, right? Like, if there's no, if there's no plan, you could just say something. Sometimes it can come across that way. But, I don't think that's courage.

April: I think when it does, when it is that it's, it's not courage. It's not part of, I don't know what it is, but it's not courage. because I don't think it's reckless. I think courage is really intentional. And then, Lastly, that courage was always recognized and rewarded many times, not so much, especially in the moment, maybe in hindsight, [01:08:00] but, and those small things, usually not at all.

April: and I say that because I think, especially in the Western world, we live in a society where we don't celebrate the little things. We only celebrate these big achievements and it's a very short thing. And then we're onto the next. And so I think, and for me, it was really hard to see When I had been courageous, especially in those small moments, like dancing with my kiddos, like that was courage.

Roger: How do you celebrate the small moments of courage?

April: For me, I just say, I hope I'm making you proud, buddy. That's kind of my moment to recognize it.

Roger: So lovely. So April, how do you define courage and how courage gives life meaning?

April: I think courage is the ability, which I think we all have. but then the willingness to confront pain, grief, discomfort, [01:09:00] and, and uncertainty or anything where you're really experiencing fear.

April: Right. And it's kind of regardless of the challenge that you're going to face in doing so. And so that's kind of like my definition of courage. And I think in doing so, if you can sit and recognize it with yourself, whether the result is. What you were hoping for or not, if you can recognize the fact that you did it, I think, and you keep doing it, you'll feel the meaning.

April: You'll see the meaning. You'll have wonderful people like you, Roger, call it out to you at some point when you weren't expecting it, you know, and instead of trying to say no, no, no, and shying away from it, like taking a moment to actually appreciate it because it's so important and it gives you fuel to kind of keep going.

April: So I, I think it's just so instrumental and having a meaningful life. Have

Roger: you found that you are more likely to call out and recognize other people acting with courage? Absolutely.

April: [01:10:00] Absolutely. And I love, I'm glad you said that one of my favorite things to do with my people or anybody that I'm coaching is the celebration.

April: Like when they do something that even if it seems so small, it's usually, cause it seems small. Usually some of our greatest gifts that we can give to people are things that feel easy to us. And so, I love recognizing when my employees have done something that might seem very minuscule to them. But have a really big impact and showing that and being excited for with them with that.

April: When I'm having a coaching session and somebody just kind of has a big aha moment, I love taking a time out and being like, hold on. Did you just hear yourself being brilliant? Cause I did, you know, and it just so helps so much with your, with your confidence and your ability. And it's like recognizing that you are being courageous and, oh, it means everything.

April: Yeah. It's the funnest thing to do.

Roger: I recently, did that with someone. And I'd kind of, kind of forgotten about it. And then maybe a week later, [01:11:00] uh, they came back and said, Hey, remember that time you told me I was courageous? it was one of those, Oh no, I, I don't remember doing that, but it obviously had an impact, another gift.

Roger: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, and it does, I'm trying to think of like how many times, like it's great to show gratitude, because it's something that gives something to the giver and the receiver. it's great to acknowledge the contributions of others. but I don't, I'm kind of wondering like how often do we call out courage?

Roger: And maybe that's because we're not sure what it is when we see it. Cause we don't know if someone's afraid of something. Cause that usually is the part of the definition of being brave or being courageous is when you're kind of afraid of what might happen. so maybe that's what, why it makes it harder to call out, but how powerful that is when you do call it out.

April: Yeah. Yeah. I've only ever seen it gone well when [01:12:00] I've acknowledged it in somebody, I can tell you, there's a few things I know for sure, I think, and I, I don't think I've ever. Given out a compliment about courage that has not been received. Well,

Roger: I mean, even if they like, sort of, you know, well, well, uh, deflect and be like, no, no, no.

Roger: It wasn't, it wasn't courage. I think it's still landing a positive impact and it's probably, you know, planting the seed for them to be courageous next time when they might not, uh, when they're questioning whether or not to, to show courage. Absolutely. So recently at my work, uh, there is a leader who was, uh, talking about the ability to share, share the thought and hold the thought of grief.

Roger: Enjoy at the same time and with everything going on in the world. And, you know, as we're recording this right in the middle of a couple of holidays, there are, there's so many [01:13:00] things to be joyous about. There's so many things to grieve, that, that, that are going on. What, What Do You Know To Be True?about holding joy and grief at the same time?

April: Oh, have you ever seen the movie inside out? I think it's like a Pixar Disney movie.

Roger: Yes,

April: it's animated, right?

Roger: Yeah,

April: I what I love about that movie and it's not a spoiler alert I promise but like they kind of learn that you know And initially she starts out with very singular emotions for things and then as life gets more complex They hold more than one emotion at a time, you know, and I remember watching that movie before I had my daughter Ada.

April: I was just consuming a lot of TV as a way of like numbing and I had watched that and I was like crying as I was watching that because I'm like, it's so true. And it's like, it's the, I used to, this is a joke, but I used to always think that it's a, you know, when people say something and then, but it's like, it negates everything they said initially.

April: To me, it's like the and. It's both grief and joy and at first I thought that was just like a little HR technique, you know, [01:14:00] the and business I didn't really care for it didn't sit well with me, but then going through this I'm like, oh, it's so true It's the and you know Not this Christmas this past Christmas, but a couple before then, you know My kiddos were opening up gifts and it was really exciting and I started to cry You know, cause I was like, there's one missing, you know, I'm thinking in my head, there's one missing and my daughter comes over to me.

April: And because I make Lincoln so much a part of our lives, like I talk about him, we have his pictures around, you know, like they, they've used a lot of his toys and things, you know, as they've grown up, you know, she comes over to me and she's four and a half. And she's just like, are you sad because you miss Lincoln?

April: And I'm like, Yeah, bug. You know, thank you for recognizing that. Like, I'm so grateful to be here with you and your brother. But yeah, I am sad. And I love the fact. The biggest thing is I wanted to make sure that I showed my emotions when it came to my grief and sadness with Lincoln in front of her, because I never wanted her to feel like.

April: she was the reason I was upset or sad about anything. And I know I said four and a half, but I think she was like [01:15:00] three and a half at the time. And she said that to me. And so little kids can handle way more than we give them credit for. They're way more profound than we give them credit for. And the fact that she took the time out, she's got such a big heart to recognize me and my grief and her fun day of Christmas.

April: She came over, she gave me a hug. And then she went back to opening up presents. It just made me feel so seen. And made me feel like I was doing the right thing. I really appreciated it.

Roger: So April, are you ready for the lightning round? Oh, I'm

April: ready.

Roger: You like that little DJ announcer voice? Yeah, absolutely.

Roger: I've been working on that. Fill in the blank. Courage is?

April: Courage is hard. It's hard. Let's call out the hard work that it is. It requires a lot of you. So I'm going to say it's hard, but it's so worth it. Who in your life provides courage for you? Gosh, she probably doesn't even recognize this, but my husband.

April: You know, I have to give it to him every once in a while. He, he has some really good [01:16:00] lines where I'm like, okay. but, but he helps me with that. He listens. He's not somebody of many words, but when he uses them, they're, they're very strong.

Roger: I love having people in my life like that, who again, you know, those words have power because they use so few of them.

April: We balance each other out very well.

Roger: I, I can relate to that. Is there a practice or routine that, that helps you grow, nurture or renew your ability to help others with courage?

April: Keeping courageous myself. Mm-Hmm. . Again, time and a place for it. But when I have the opportunity. with that opportunity. and honestly, first and foremost, it probably helps with my kids.

April: Uh, as anybody knows, like kiddos, they are, are tough. you go back to [01:17:00] kind of your own upbringing and you think about all the things that you maybe want to bring forward or don't want to bring forward. It requires a lot of mental toughness there. uh, but they're a good practice every single day. And I, and I love it because when I mess up, cause I do, I, I follow the same kind of, kind of timeout routine that we do for our kiddos that I do for myself.

April: So I practice that with them and I'm like, okay, mommy needs two minutes. You know, I'm going to sit down and I tell them what I did wrong. And then I said that was not nice. And then I asked them if I can have a hug and I always do. And you know, what's beautiful about that? They always forgive me. They always will be willing to hug me or they want the hug if they've done something wrong.

April: And they move on so fast. Like they forget the thing. I remember it longer than they do. I wonder if we all practice that a little bit more, if we would forget some of these things, stop harboring all these ill feelings and just kind of move forward and recognize that we're human and we're going to make mistakes.

Roger: There's something so powerful about the timeout. [01:18:00] And I, I find myself giving myself time out still like my, my kids are, are quite a bit older than yours now. and I'm not giving them time outs there. They're, they're more likely to give me time out, but, but I know when I'm, you know, when I'm, when I'm feeling my big feelings, as we used to say, or still say, I know I need to take a couple of minutes and, and just calm down and just whatever chemicals flowing through my body, just let it flush out.

Roger: But I love the idea of like the hug because you get that. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's your heart next to someone else's heart and it's a charge. It's, it's, there's something biochemical that gets released, in that moment and it's a reset and it's, it's a physical way of saying you're good. You're ready to move on.

Roger: And

April: I don't know if it's because physical touch is also my love language as to why the hug is so important to me, but my husband knows I'm like, this is not settled until there's a hug. Okay. So like, are you [01:19:00] good? If not, that's fine, but I'll know that he's good when he gives me a hug, you know, so

Roger: Hmm. I love that So is there a book or movie that you recently consumed that you would recommend that has courage as a theme?

April: well, I know we've talked about Renee Brown a lot, but I Devoured her book the gifts of imperfection Pregnant on a ferry going to van to going to Victoria the first Christmas that we didn't have Lincoln You And it gave me so many gifts in figuring out the fact that, like, I'm not broken. It gave me so many gifts to realize that we're all human.

April: It gave me so many gifts to understand that I'm allowed to have boundaries, and what they could look like and that they're not always this negative thing. I think we, so many times you think, Oh, a boundary means that you're doing something mean to somebody else. And it's like, no, I'm also taking care of myself too.

April: And there's a, a nice and a not nice way to do it. Right. I've [01:20:00] also learned that as a manager, you know, there's. The thing that you might think initially in your head, because we all have these negative judges in our head, but then there's, how do you actually say it in a very productive way? And that's not disingenuous.

April: That's taking the time to really think about the other person and what they desire and what they need. So, you know, um. Renee helped me with that a lot. So the gifts of imperfection, I have a couple of copies and I loan it out to people at work all the time. the second one is finding meaning by Roger, uh, by David Kessler.

April: not if you're in the first two years of grief, but other than that, yes. Very amazing book, because I think you'll see moments of courage that are small and large. I have bereaved parent friends that have started their own 501c like organizations to help raise money to help with different things like SUDC, SUDC, which is Sudden Unexpected Death in Child.

April: It's like SIDS, but for kids, uh, one through 18, which I didn't even know was a thing. I've had people, uh, do something small like baking cookies for their school's, [01:21:00] bake sale. You know, I, I'm doing a podcast is my, my way. And so I, I just love the thought of. Making meaning doesn't need to be this big and extravagant thing.

April: And like courage doesn't need to be big and extravagant. And so, uh, highly love, love his book.

Roger: So what is one thing that gets in your way of courage?

April: Fear. A hundred percent of the time, my own or like external fear, like somebody projecting their fear onto me, like, Oh, you can't do that. You could, my favorite two word question as a coach is.

April: It says who

April: I can't do that says who

Roger: what word or phrase describes what courage feels like when it's had a positive Impact on someone else.

April: I want to say love but it feels like such a not strong enough word

Speaker 3: This

April: is where I'm jealous of like the Greeks that had like three [01:22:00] different layers of like love Like a gap. It was like the ultimate love right? So And maybe people think of love differently. I know that we sometimes Too often make it like associated with like an intimacy or a romantic kind of thing And it's really just like this love for one another this one this love for ourselves You know, it's just something that I think has really been missing over the last few years, especially that we've seen in society it's just this lack of Respect or dignity of the love that we each have inside of each other and I think being courageous you you witness it in somebody Else and they can witness it in you

Roger: I was listening to a podcast where Brené Brown, Simon Sinek, and Adam Grant get together, right?

Roger: Brené Brown was talking about, as a leader, what's required is having deep [01:23:00] affection and care for the people under, you know, that, that report to you. and, and they, they go on to talk about how that, that is love.

Roger: Uh, when you're courageous at the workplace, that is demonstrating sometimes it could be demonstrating love for others.

Roger: Sometimes it's just, yeah, demonstrating it for yourself. but most times, and the example that you were talking about earlier, that it's demonstrating love for, for, for others. The, the, the people you serve

April: right after Lincoln died. I did just a ton of reading, just, that was the only place that I could find any comfort.

April: Right. I was reading about people's near death experiences. I was reading about mediumship and how they connect, you know, again, I was just kind of searching for like heaven, like the, this proof or whatever, that there's something that exists. And I also kind of doubled down and I was, you know, I was reading the Bible and not to make this any kind of like religious thing or whatever, but, you know, I remember thinking to myself, like, How do I be more like Jesus?

April: And regardless who, whatever you think he is, like the, the whole [01:24:00] concept of him is right, is love, right? Love for who did he hang around with? You know, not the nobles and the Kings and whatnot. He hung around with the ordinary people that were sinners every day. Right. So, I thought to myself, okay, like how can I judge myself on is what I'm doing, choosing love versus fear.

April: Is that. Getting me closer to acting accordance to kind of his teachings or away from it, right? And I remember I was telling one of my friends about it at work, one of the other managers and she's, she's atheist too. So it was funny that she would, you know, humor me in this and I would look at her and I'm like, I'm just trying to love Carl.

April: How do I do this? Like, he's just really, and she just started laughing. I'm like, this is really hard. Like, and she's like, I get it. Yeah. She's like, but it's amazing that you're even trying.

Roger: Yeah. I think, you know, any, any kind of religious talk can get such a bad rap these days and really, I mean, I think if you boil it down, whether it's the Quran, the Bible. The Torah, like these are [01:25:00] stories of what it means to be a good person. And I have, I have a friend who was talking about, the podcast and the idea of like, why, why would I come onto your podcast?

Roger: Everything important has already been said. And it's like, well, there's a reason why people go to service every week. It's because there's a communal aspect. There's a, a shared value aspect, but it's also. Hearing these stories over again and getting proof that there is a way that we can act in a way that's in accordance with those shared values and for the betterment of all of us.

Roger: and, and that's, that's what I think about when we, when we, you know, talk about these stories and, and use, have, have role models. I think it's great to have role models and question whether it's the You know, what would Jesus do? Or what would Buddha do? Or, you know, what would Duncan do? My grandfather, who's my role model for, for, you know, upholding and demonstrating living through values and courage.

I think that's fine. Not that you're, not that you're asking for my evaluation or judgment on that one, but I think it's really powerful that we need sometimes, you know, we have so many questions going on in our head and so many thoughts that we need something that we can validate with that external barometer. I think that's a very smart practice.

April: Yeah. And even if not somebody else, something that, you know, Jennifer Marcou has said in one of your previous episodes too, it's a, what would your 20 year old, 20 year older self do?

Roger: Yeah, if a listener wanted to follow up with you, ask you a question or, or, or share a comment, where would you point them to?

April: Well, I would point them to my LinkedIn. If they want to know more about my podcast, I'd point them to uncomfortable friend, which is available on, iTunes, Spotify, anywhere where you listen to, to podcast really.

Roger: Wonderful. And I highly recommend your podcast again, it is a masterclass in vulnerability. And courage. And it's, it's just a beautiful thing to witness like this conversation. Uh, thank you so much for sharing what you've learned to be true, uh, about courage and how courage gives life meaning.

I'm in awe of you being able to show up and share the story. You continue to teach me things that I don't, I still don't quite understand. But I have a better understanding of these things through our conversation. So, thank you so much for sharing, for continuing to share and for being in this conversation with me today.

April: Absolutely. And thank you so much, Roger, for this platform. I'm just so thankful to be able to be on your show. And I think you're doing, giving the same kinds of [01:28:00] gifts to your listeners here. And I've enjoyed all of your episodes so far. So avid listener here.

Roger: Hmm. Thank you. Okay. Take care. Bye bye.

April: You as well. Bye.

Roger: Okay. Thank you friend for staying to the end. This was a long episode and hopefully you agree with me. It was worth every minute being in these conversations. Take courage. These are uncomfortable topics, but growth happens in those uncomfortable spaces and for the bereaved, which will be everyone at some point, our ability to see them, to hear them, to be with them and to witness their courage. We give the lives of their loved ones meaning.

Reflecting on this conversation leads me to a question I have for myself. And that's where am I making decisions out of fear and not love, especially when I choose to be courageous or when I'm applying my superhero power?

If you think someone would benefit from this episode, please share it with them. Thank you for doing that.

What Do You Know To Be True? is a Three Blue Pens production and I'm your host Roger Kastner.

We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Squamish people. To discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you may be on, go to native-lands.ca

Okay. Be well, my friends.