The Power of Divergent Thinking to Transform Organizations | Rick Beaton

TRANSCRIPT

Roger: So what does it feel like when your superpower of being a kaleidoscope has had a positive impact on others?

Rick: There's this sense of joy. There's a sense of fulfillment. There's a sense of that you are able to have a positive contribution in the world that you belong. Well, I find on a personal level, the kaleidoscope thing deeply, deeply tiring.

Because it involves so much of me and I'm engaged on, on so many levels that, um, after we often go for like, say a three or four hour session, I'm mentally tired because it's exhausting. And then there's also the part that it's deeply satisfying to be part in dish and also privileged to share the journey with somebody and to help them and sort of walk and help them and yourself to see new perspectives or different things and new opportunities and at times healing and health, and restoration, all of that is present in it. So it's a cool thing.

Roger: Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the What Do You Know To Be True? podcast.

In these conversations I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill, their superhero power, and the meaningful impact it has on others.

The goal is not to try to emulate or hack our way to new talent. Instead, the intention is to learn more about their experiences with their superpower. And in doing so, maybe we can learn something about the special talent in each of us and how it relates to our ability to reach for our potential.

This conversation is with Rick Beaton and his superpower of offering a kaleidoscope of perspectives. Now, you know, a kaleidoscope. Represents a single set of things in a multitude of perspectives.

That's what Rick does. And as someone who's experienced a lot of things and learned to lean into many different perspectives, Rick says he's had the privilege of both good and bad fortunes. enough to be able to offer many different perspectives and see patterns that may not be available to everyone else.

Rick has seen some things in his life and now he offers that lifetime of diverse experiences to benefit those who engage with him.

If you're ready, Let's dive in.

Roger: Well, hey, Rick, it's great to see you. Thanks for joining me today.

Rick: It's a pleasure to be here, Roger. Thank you for having me.

Roger: Yeah, I've been looking forward to this conversation because the conversations we've had have been really engaging, really thought provoking, energizing. And every time I walk away from those conversations, it feels like my brain has just gone to the gym.

And it's, it's been worked out a little bit and, and I think it's, it's not because you're taxing me or you're requiring me to like do hard math problems, but it's more just so energized and thinking about new things and thinking about things in a different way, which. happens to be your superhero power that you want to talk about today of helping people see things differently than they're currently seeing it at the moment.

Rick: This notion of a kaleidoscope is, is a fascinating, uh, metaphor. And I hadn't thought about it much. Um, some friends said, that's kind of what you are. And I think so often it seems that way that, you know, we, We don't totally see ourselves. Um, you know, it's a problem of bias and perspectivism, right? So, um, it's always interesting to ask other people. “So what do you think it could be?”  This, this notion of a superpower,

When I talk with new managers, I say, you know, I understand that you're responsible for budget and planning and all that. But, but there is a sense in which you're being given responsibility for a group of people in the capacity of people.

And capacity is a really complex thing. Um, you know, all of us from our, from what we know about our neurobiology and life experiences and history and education and familial and regional cultures, and we, we arrive at our work and we're just like this complex thing. And. Business to scale. We want to stream it down and present people as this uniform.

In fact, some of the personality stuff is, well, you're a tiger and you're an owl and you're yellow and you're blue. And it's like, you know, I had this one person, she goes, apparently I'm a strategic thinker. I used to think I had a lot of other things, but everyone now only wants to talk to me as though I'm the strategy person.

And I said, well, that's the problem, right? We, we, we take this sort of complexity and we minimize it. And then we scale and force people in a box. Then we wonder why they're not happy in their career. This gift, and I view it as a gift, um, that offer friends and people that I work with, and it's a reflection of my ability to enter their world and to bring sort of the net result of everything that I've been through and everything in my education and my history and to sit with them and to listen actively and where it's appropriate to help them get to where they want to get to.

But because of the rich background that I've been fortunate to have, which includes a lot of pain, um, and adversity that, that rich history allows me to see things that they may not see, and I can hear things and see things through different filters. So the kaleidoscope is really sort of a series of filters that I'm always listening and hearing through and seeing through that allows me to see the world in a different way and then engage people in hopefully fun, entertaining, um, serious.

challenging conversations to help them or their organization get to where they need to go.

Roger: Oh, I love that. So you're not the green penguin that helps people see things just a 10 percent shift different. You're more of, you get to, you get to, you know, share things through like a, you know, I want to use the word prism, but we might be introducing too many things, but through that, through that lens of a kaleidoscope where you get to see things from different angles.

Yeah. So maybe it can help shift their thinking to solve the issue or the opportunity in front of them.

Rick: Exactly. Yeah. So when the, the way I define expertise, for example, when it comes to, um, people related matters. So whether it's organizational culture or thinking about leadership development or these various, anything to do with talent in an organization.

Expertise that you end up being at. Sort of on the educational side, um, humans are astonishingly complex, I think, um, and the more we learn about people, the more complex it becomes. I remember, you know, in the late 90s, when I was a professor, um, these two guys that are famous for metaphor wrote this book called Philosophy of the Flesh, and it was like their encounter with neurobiology.

And, and all of a sudden realizing that this one organ that sits in our head shapes percept, how we perceive the world, how we understand the world, how we engage the world, how we interpret the world. All of this is being filtered through a body that are the key sensors for that organ. And the implication then for philosophy and thinking about philosophy is that, you know, a lot of what we were speculating about has to be then rethought and reconsidered because we're actually dealing with an embodied being that our brains play this profound role.

Um, I don't know how you manage people and not know something about the brain. You know, it's just, there is that sense in which, and that's just one dimension of the complexity of people. Um, so again, when I'm, when I'm working with, with organizations and managers, it's like, here's some stuff about neurobiology that you just have to know now.

Because you're, if your goal is to engage people in a way that moves them from point A to point B, If you don't know them more intimately than just through your generic human being and using generic techniques, you're not going to be successful at all.

Roger: What's your, what you're talking about is really that move from like post industrial to, you know, knowledge worker to now really insight worker, and the expertise of the work is not, no longer at the top of the pyramid. The pie chart or the, um, the, the pyramid. It's now at the people who are actually doing the work.

And we know that EQ outperforms IQ and you need to have both, but it's, it's the EQ that is really the, the jet fuel for organizations today.

So, you know, treating people as the green penguin versus the blue bunny rabbit, and looking at the complexity, the multiple variables of, of personality and needs of what's in between our ears and what shapes how we show up and react to stimulus, not understanding the brain and not understanding the complexity that's represented there, you know, do so at your, at your peril.

Rick: Yeah. And there's an understand behind that. Like going again, sort of the, the second part of, of, um, expertise then is, is not just having the knowledge and knowing how to apply the knowledge. So it's a difference in knowledge and wisdom. I'd be wisdom as sort of knowledge applied in, in human circumstances, right?

This understanding of the world, but it's, it's, it's the life, it's the breadth of experience. So you can take somebody that's born and raised in Seattle, never left Seattle, worked in the same company in Seattle and has a senior role in shaping their people strategy. And. You know, part of me wants to go, let's take that person and put them around the world and have them live in different communities with different groups of people so that they have a broader experience of the human, what it means to be human in all these different places, then let's put them back in that role, right?

It's the difference between sort of this uniform, very specific. This is, well, of course, this is the way people are versus holy crap. You know, You go to Nepal or, you know, India or Thailand or Germany or Italy or Kazakhstan. You realize that we have these cultures and ways of being and societies that are just fundamentally different.

And it opens you up to the human, the breadth of the human experience to realize there isn't, in a lot of this stuff, there isn't one way, you know, it's, there are different ways of being and there are different approaches and different, so that, and even whether you adopt it or not, it challenges you and creates a sense of openness in him and an acceptance to the other, um, that being raised in one specific area.

So if I had stayed in my small little town in Canada, I'd be a certain person. Um, but because I've worked in over, you know, 20 countries and have advanced education in certain things, it has changed me in fundamental ways. So the way I engage people in the work is fundamentally different. And that's the gift I think that I, that I offer my customers and friends.

Roger: And I love that. I'm I, as you were talking, I was imagining that that's the difference between a microscope and a kaleidoscope.

Rick: Yeah. In some ways. Yeah. And that's great. Yeah. I think that's probably true. Yeah.

Roger: What or who inspired you to have this kaleidoscope view of situations? 

Rick: It's life circumstances. I mean, I was fortunate to live in Asia when I was young. I'm working with a big international nonprofit and lived amongst the poor and with the poor. And it fundamentally changed me. Um, and I left that with questions from my own history, my own background, um, from a small town, conservative father and parents.

Um, and just wanted to realize I wanted to figure the world out. Um, so before I knew it, I had a PhD from Cambridge and was teaching in Europe and It was developing a body of theoretical knowledge, but the, the driver, if you will, um, is, was the, uh, um, it's probably some of the pain of my human existence prior to that and all, and the, and the, honestly, the dissonance when I was younger, I thought I might want to be a jazz musician.

I played sax and various things in jazz bands. And I always loved improv, improvisation, and part of the improvisational piece of jazz was sort of the structure of the music, but then the ability to sort of, to do your own riff, but, but it's still constrained and instructed, right? You still have.

Key, you still have tempo, you still have genre and you play within that, but yet you can do your own thing and realizing when I did the big five personality, my openness score is really high, right? So I, I have the type of brain gift or whatever that lives out of the box. And so my flaw is I have to tear everything apart.

To figure it out. You don't want me doing operations. Um, cause the first thing I'll look at it and say, well, why would you do it this way? But as, as, as a quote, visionary or someone that can see out of the box, I'm really good at it. Um, so that's sort of the strength and the weakness of my life. I I'm really good at, at, um, tearing things apart and analysis and imagining something completely different, but there's, we're often way ahead of the curve as a result of it.

And when we started our business, I had CEOs almost laugh us out of the room. It's like, what are you talking about? Why would you care about people? You know, why, what, what are you talking about? Flourishing and thriving of people and wellbeing of people. They just come to work. And we had a really hard, difficult time finding an audience for it.

Cause nobody was really interested in flourishing and thriving in business. So it's, it's ironic that all of a sudden now post pandemic, it's what anybody, well, everybody wants to talk about. Um, but it's, it's hard to apply. People have no idea how difficult it is to translate the positive psych literature that most of them are relying on into a business organizational context.

So those, those are a few factors, but there, there are lots of other ones that probably aren't for public consumption. Yeah.

Roger: It's, you were talking about the, the ability to think out of the box and where, where I think the most, um, what I've seen is the most creative, the most innovative thoughts, um, come from that type of thinking, but it requires a box, it does require those guidelines, guidelines or guardrails. And the, you know, sometimes it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, whether it's in the sandbox, which feels, you know, in the box or the out of the box thinking there's, there's a box, right?

Yeah. So I'm, I'm interested when you're in applying the kaleidoscope to these issues, to these challenges, to these opportunities, are you following a framework or a process? that just helps you naturally get to the place where you can share the view in the kaleidoscope?

Rick: Yes, the answer is yes. Um, like I have a phrase that I use that leadership Is always, always, always dependent upon its context.

Um, so we lead in and I wish more people would talk about that. So that's part of the box I think is what is, what are the organizational outcomes? What is the type of organization that you need to build and construct? Um, what type of leadership do you need in that particular context? Um, what are the organizational goals that you set for yourself?

Then the question for my. From our side is how do we map and create a human ecosystem? That is both good for the people that are within that organizational system, while at the same time helps you, you need to achieve your organizational outcomes at the same time. So the business model of business plan and business strategy.

And so it's the integration of those elements. So all of a sudden leadership then becomes, um, Something of, uh, it's like, I call it a team sport where you rely on, like, I love working with really smart CFOs and CEOs and whatnot, but everyone kind of has to bring their discipline and their expertise and then honor the other person's discipline and expertise.

And stay in their lane. And then the integration occurs when, when you sort of try to fuse those together, rather than me pretending like I did financial modeling when I was younger, and I'm pretty good at math. Um, you should never hire me as your CFO. I'm not a CFO. Right. So the, in a sense, I always say, well, I stay in my lane.

I do, I do human related and build human ecosystems as a T shaped person. I might be decent at math and finance, but it doesn't make me a CFO. The other part is there's, there's a question of human development. Our process is a lot of people view life as a linear, um, but that's really not how people develop, I don't think.

I think people in organizations, we use the metaphor of a cylindrical cone that's wide at the top and then narrows as it goes down to the bottom. And so what I realized is that we can have a conversation about two or three or four different topics that are. That I listening to you. I see is essential that we that's where we need to shift and grow.

Um, so I'd have an introductory conversation with you and meeting you where you are at that moment and listen and provoke and be gentle and. Pushy at some points and engaged with you. Um, then we'll leave and then come back, say in two weeks, we can have the same conversation, but you've had two weeks to think about it.

You've had two weeks for it to get like a burr under your saddle and bother you. And we can have that same conversation, but it's not this, it's not the conversation anymore. It's changed. Because you've changed and I've changed and it's, this is where I love working with customers and with friends and whatnot is because I get to change as well, because in engaging with you in that conversation, it's not, I'm just not asking you to shift.

I find at times that I shift my opinion or I shift my viewpoint because I've added more to my own personal dataset. So it's like this, it's always this sort of cool collaboration where, and after a while you go from the sort of the big cone. To where it's, it's, you're getting closer to where it needs to be.

And it's the same thing with talent development, with skill development. That's kind of the model that we use that goes back to developmental psychology of how people actually develop and grow, rather than just thinking it's just sort of these linear inputs and we leave it up to the person. To shift.

Roger: I love that metaphor of the cone, because not only it, it represents the, you know, coming together and the narrowing, um, whether we call that alignment or just stripping out the things that are no longer serving But also when we use a funnel, things don't travel straight through a funnel.

They'll actually spiral as they go through that fire, um, funnel. And so we can think of that in the context of when we're having conversations, when we're talking about, we might be narrowing the focus of what we're talking about, but we're still like, you know, it's, it's, it's not a linear process. That there is some, some circularness. Is that a word?
There's some spiraling in that process and, and we, I think we tend to think of spiraling as a negative, but I don't think it's a negative at all. I think we, you know, in education, we talk about spiraling curriculum meeting. We're coming back and. Talking about application and learning and, you know, and, and, and reflecting as we're going through a subject.

And I think when we're working with people in organizations, we have to think about it that way as well. We can't like drop knowledge on people and expect them to pick it up, understand it and apply it and show up as a different organization tomorrow. It would be cool if that was true, but it not only takes time, but it takes repeatable.

Rick: No, that's, that's really true, Roger. And on reflection, it's funny that part of it's, it's implied in what you're saying is, and just to be sort of more specific about it is, is that when I, when I begin with. engagements, whether it's, you know, of any kind. Um, and even with my own employees, it's clear from the beginning is, is that in this process, we always have to preface it by saying always, always, always, we want positive intent to be present.

It means we give each other the benefit of the doubt. So, so things can be said and you're not going to immediately go, well, you're a hole or you're this, you know, it's just like, you just sort of stop and say. Okay, well, let's wait for a second. So what I heard was this. Is that what you meant? Because I know we're both engaged and want positive outcome in this.

So either I misunderstood, or maybe you communicated in, in, in a way that you didn't mean to, because this is how it could be interpreted. And very often it's like, Oh my gosh, no, that's not at all. I'm sorry that you heard that, you know, it's just like, let me rephrase it in a way that, you know, um, which was completely the notion of.

Positive engagement or positive intent has to be part of it because if it, if it, it's when it shifts to being suspicious or negative or whatnot, then, then, then you begin to lose it. I think that was so devastating with the, um, you know, Jack Welch approach to stacking and various things like that is, is it, it got that one fundamental point of.

And a part of me wants to say, if you knew something about humans, you're counterbalancing the negativity of the sympathetic nervous system and the impact of, you know, those elements. How do we counteract that? And that's, I think the power of not flaky positivity like this so often, but a genuine willingness to say, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are positively engaged and want to move this forward.

And if you're not, then, then we have a bigger problem because that's the type of people we want to have working here. And they have, you know, so that's, that's, for me, I always begin with that.

Roger: When I'm working with teams, especially early on, and I asked them to come up with their ground rules of how they want to approach doing this work.

Um, often someone will say, let's, let's assume good intent. Yeah. And the, the, the challenge I find with that is I've already done the stakeholder interviews. I've already met with each of these people. There's no assumption of good intent and it's something that people want to abide by. But they don't. They have history, they have trauma, they have issues with each other. You don't have trust.

And so I will, I learned this thing a number of years ago. I can't remember where I got it, but it's this idea of like, maybe, maybe not, maybe you're not ready to assume good intent, but assume you don't know intent.

Rick: You're talking about of like, let's let's validate. Let's understand. Here's what I thought.

Roger: And it makes me think of the Stephen M. R. Covey book, “The Speed of Trust,” where he breaks down the 4 elements of trust of intent, purpose. Integrity capabilities and results. And what I think is so instructive there is we, we actually get to see integrity.

Do you do what you say you're going to do? We get to see capabilities. Can you do what you say you're going to do and results? Did you do it? What we don't see is intent. And I think, I think we're actually really bad at assuming intent of others. Um, And I think there's a good reason for it. There's so many variables.

There's so many options. So either, either assuming good intent or assuming you don't know intent will get you to ask, hopefully to validate. Um, the other thing I think is really important for us is, can we state intent early on? And that, that by itself won't earn trust, because then if you don't, you can state intent, but if you don't show up with integrity, you don't, you know, you don't show capabilities and you don't deliver results, you're not going to get trusted.

But if by stating intent early on, which you're talking about by stating intent early on, these other things will show up as evidence. And people will see the through line and that's how you become trustworthy.

Rick: No, that's well said. I think. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Uh, you know, there are a bunch of words that I don't use much.

Um, trust is one of them. Um, right. And I don't use, um, engagement much. And I don't use, you know, just things like that. Cause I see them as effects of a healthier or negative system. If there's a lack of engagement or there's a lack of trust, my, my response to organizations is what, you know, why would we trust each other?

Um, you know, the significant power differential, there is often lack of transparency, there is an inherent push to, you know, to be competitive with each other to try to scramble for the top, you know, the whole structure of the organization is based on why would, why would you trust anybody, you know, just so I don't use the word, you know, just, um, I think there, there, there are other ground rules that we can establish that if we live by them, you know, after a period of time and prolonged exposure to each other, like you say, you know, with those elements, then we might look back and say.

Yeah, I'm at a point where I kind of trust you. Um, but it's always kind of right. It's um, maybe that's because I'm older now, you know

I've been a part of it. I've been it worked in inside of it A lot, a lot of different organizations around the world. And, uh, that one, that's a word that I know we love to use and it shows up in all of the teamwork books and all of the, if you want to get people going, talk about purpose and talk about trust and, you know, Oh gosh, I feel, that's wonderful.

Um, but as humans, it's, it's a tough one.

Roger: Well, going back to the, the Stephen M. R. Covey book, he'll say the fastest way to build trust is to show. Capabilities and results. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not talking about it. It's doing it.

Rick: It's actually doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I love to climb mountains and, um, you know, an old mentor friend, Walt Wright wrote a book called don't step on the rope.

Using a mountain climbing metaphor for, for teams. And a big part of that is trust. So one day we're out and there were these big, um, big chunks of snow and ice and stuff like that. Right. And, and you, you never want to stop. You just, and you're on a rope together. You want to go buy these things as fast as you can, because when it warms up, sometimes they'll break off and kill everybody.

Right. And so we were out there one time and there this group of dudes in a particular industry and. They're stopping and they're laughing and they're doing all this sort of stuff. And they knew. You know, they knew all this stuff and, but the way they behaved, it's like, I'll never climb with them again.

That was my response. It's just like, even though it's, it's, it's, it's just a minor risk. It's, you are putting all of our lives at risk by your behavior. Why would I, why would I climb with you in the future? And there, there is, I think it is a really cool metaphor for life and for work. This idea of being on a rope together and realizing that, In mountain climbing, your life really is in the hands of that other person at work.

It's not so much obviously, but, but trust plays a profound, profound role.

Roger: I love that metaphor. And I wonder when we're working with teams at any level, um, do you, do you pull on some of those experiences and metaphors of, of climbing, of being roped in as a way of, you know, showing that your success and my success is absolutely tied together and our fate.

It's tied together.

Rick: Well, I think, I think it's, it's not just teams. I think it's in every aspect of the business. Um, like, um, Max Dupree, another mentor. Um, and, uh, and he, the way he talked about delegation, even. Is, is he, he, he had this in one of his books and then he would talk with us privately about it as well, but he'd say, and every CEO and owner of big business knows this, that you wake up in the morning, there, there's, there's, there are moments where you realize that to your surprise and horror, sometimes that your success in your life, in your business.

It's tied to 50, 000 people out there doing everything they want to do. Right. And this is your life is kind of, you're, you're abandoned to the gifts and the skills and the competency and the engagement or whatever, uh, 50, 000 people to have this whole thing work. And you're just one person, anybody who's a senior leader, if you haven't had that feeling, you know, you should, because there's a certain humility to it, that it's like, I'm not doing this.

I'm doing this in collaboration with 50, 000 other people who are also bringing their thing, right? So, so there is a sense in which even the act of delegation of say, if I'm working for you and you delegate something to me to be a solid, you know, You know, giving, providing me autonomy means that, you know, me that, you know, the skill set that I have, you know, the competence we unders that's clear what I'm supposed to be doing that the standards of excellence and what you're expecting of me.

And it's done in a fair way. All of that is in place. Then you give something to me and it's like, it's the coolest thing because there's that level of, I'm giving this to you. I trust you. You're moving the organization forward. We're in this together. It's this collaborative, really, really cool experience that we get to have.

And whether it's your team, whether it's just individual delegation, or it's on a real high meta level of a CEO with the entire firm. Um, we are all in this sort of collaborative, accountable relationships to each other to perform and move the organization forward. That's why I use the language capacity for people.

Um, it's really important that people have space in that system to grow and develop and to become fully who they are and who they're meant to be, which is much more than just, I'm an owl or I'm a. Working, you know, just there's so much more to people than the simplistic systems that organizations put in place.

Roger: What does it feel like when your superpower of being a kaleidoscope has had a positive impact on others?

Rick: It brings great joy, right? This is part of being human and for me. I love Mike Csikszentmihalyi's work back in the 80s and 90s on flow. He was professor at Claremont at the Drucker school and all that, and did a lot of the early research on flow, meaning, um, becoming immersed in work that you love and time standing still.

You know, it's like that moment where you start a project, you finally get to your desk and you're working on it and all of a sudden five hours have gone by and you don't know what happened. Um, so I think, I think work like that, or just you immerse yourself and it's so part of you and the time flies and as there's this sense of joy, there's a sense of fulfillment.

There's a sense of that you are able to have a positive contribution in the world that you belong. Well, I find on a personal level, the kaleidoscope thing deeply, deeply tiring. Because it involves so much of me, it's like I have to listen and I'm engaged on on so many levels that, um, after we often go for, like, say, a 3 or 4 hour session, I'm mentally tired because it's exhausting.

But on the other hand, it's also, um, there's, there's the side of it. You feel deeply vulnerable because you've exposed yourself to a certain extent. Um, that's part of it. And then there's also the part that it's deeply satisfying to be part and and also privileged to share the journey with somebody and to help them and sort of walk and help them and yourself to see new perspectives or different things and new opportunities and at times healing and health, um, and restoration.

Restoration. Um, all of that is present in it. So, um, it's, it's, it's a cool thing. Yeah.

Roger: It sounds like mountain climbing. Yeah, no, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All those things you just described, like being, being exhausting, being joyful, being tied to one another for, for success. All those pieces are definitely in there.

How does, how does being a kaleidoscope connect with your purpose?

Rick: Well, here we go. So, so I don't think I have a purpose. I think we have multiple purposes. Um, and they, they, they have, they, they have been flow. Um, I have to confess I, I've, you know, the closest I've got to the whole purpose conversation is to think of, do I have a philosophy of life?

And maybe this is, this is part of the purpose thing, but there's an alignment of, My capacity and who I am and everything that has been invested in me and my experience of adversity and joy and all of this of life circumstances to this point gives, gives definition and a well, and the degree to which that can be used for something positive and good is a cool thing.

My other struggle with the, just since we're on the topic, my other struggle with the purpose part of it is when I was young and ambitious and. Um, there was a sense in which I, I, I saw that the, the ambition and the drive and the need to do more and purpose probably was caught up in that leads to burnout and damage.

And so I, I tend not to view the world through that grid anymore. It's, it's, it's just different.

Speaker 3: Um,

Rick: now it's more about growth, expansion of capacity. Doing good work, sharing that with people. Like right now we're building a company. I'm hoping that we can literally transform the way organizations engage people and manage people.

I think most of. What I would call business organizational life doesn't know how to build an ecosystem for people and the whole model is based on a factory anonymous and what we're trying to do is to shift it so that it's deeply personalized and we'll achieve I think Better outcomes. And the data would show that we can achieve much better outcomes, reduce the burnout, create cooler work for people and integrate artificial intelligence in a really cool way.

So we're doing again, sort of that out of the box, you know, type cool stuff. But, um, some of this language for me is key. It's like coded and it's, it's, it's, it's. If you pursue it, it actually leads to an outcome that you may not necessarily want, although it seems really good on the surface. The end outcome of that trail in mountain climbing is like, there's a big cliff at the edge of it.

Be really careful with it. Um, and I think purpose is one of those words, which is very, I know it's not trendy and not a trendy opinion, but just for some from the cheap seats.

Roger: I want to, I want to learn more about what you know about that, that edge, that cliff, that purpose can be. You know, not something that's life fulfilling or regenerative, but I absolutely.

Dangerous and perilous.

Rick: Well, I probably overstated. I tend to do that just for effect, right? So there's a certain hyperbole in that Maybe we don't want to include all of that.

Roger: I I think this is why we get along keep

Rick: going

No, there there's I I do think um You know, the, the quest for meaning is, you know, going back to the earlier conversation is, you know, why do I exist? Um, do I belong on in, in civilization? Do I, there's certain people that wake up in the morning and just feel like they belong in society. They belong at work.

They belong as part of the organization. And there's a lot of us that never, never felt like we really belonged, um, that we were ever really apart. We're just sort of on the fringe. And. The desire of people to matter that to be known to be part of, um, that's tied up in this whole question of what is, you know, what is my purpose?

Why am I here? Why? Why do I exist? Why? And for me, it's it. I've felt confident that it's like I'm, I've been enjoying exploring the world. Expanding my capacity or understanding my capacity, like my chicks, my high, you know, finding the type of work and that in a broad sense of building and capacity and all that, that that has provided meaning and purpose, but it's not I'm not.

Driven by the need for purpose. It's more by finding your place in the world and finding belonging and good work and contribution, then you look back like, you know, I guess their, their conversation on trust, it's the effect of rather than the pursuit of. And that's, I think that's the difference between the two.

It's like, trust is really important. I'll agree with you, but it's. Is it a pursuit or is it the effect of quality relationships and accountability and consistency and capability and all these things? Purpose it is, is it a pursuit or is it the effect of living a good life and having people around you that mirror back to you who you are and having a sense of belonging and knowing who you are?

Your capacity is being utilized and valued and treated fairly and respectfully amongst the community of practice in, in an organization. I think it's the latter. Right?

Roger: I would agree. I love how you're pulling apart purpose and meaning. And that purpose can be a pursuit that could, at least it makes sense to me, that purpose could be something that drives you to do things that you might not.

You know, you might not enjoy going over that cliff, whereas meaning feels, um, it, it feels like a state of being and purpose feels, I mean, it's almost like noun and verb.

Rick: Yeah, maybe that's a good way of putting it. Yeah.

Roger: What do you know to be true? about being a kaleidoscope?

Rick: I think everybody's a kaleidoscope.

I don't think it's just me. I think we all are. Well, I've been fortunate, um, in, in the life that I've lived, um, to have a lot of different experiences and access to academic institutions. Um, there's a lot of privilege that has been given. And relationships that I've enjoyed and access to, um, people and organizations and systems that, that not everybody has been given.

So my kaleidoscope is probably richer than many as a result of all that. I also don't have children. Um, you know, I also have suffered a certain amount of, um, issues that relate to that have resulted in sort of some pretty significant, um, sort of pain as well as a result of that. So, you know, the, the two go hand in hand, um, adversity, uh, adversity.

Creates depth and so my kaleidoscope is a retro kaleidoscope because of, of a lived life that is not the norm and that's okay. Um, I would love in some ways to have just stayed in British Columbia and had a wife and kids and raised cows, you know, that could have been a cool life, but it's not the life I lived, you know, but I, you know, so, so that's the difference, I think, but everybody has, everybody is, is one.

In some ways, even just calling that my superpower, it's, it's an invitation to people to, um, see the value of liberal arts again. Like I'm a huge fan of a liberal arts education because for me, it saved me. It provided, um, access to. to people that have thought about these things and have written about them and, um, different disciplines.

And it gave me tools to think of scientific method and, and objective knowledge, if you will, peer reviewed knowledge to serve as a way of interpreting some of the things that I'd seen. Yeah, like I had a, I had a really difficult time seeing the excessive poverty and the pain and how humans treat each other when I was exposed, for example, the Vietnamese refugees, the result of the Vietnam, the Vietnamese war and, um, You know, it's just once you're exposed to that kind of secondary trauma, it inevitably raises questions about life and various things like that.

The kaleidoscope metaphors is just simply a chance for everyone to recognize that the other is important. The difference in different perspectives are important that there should be a degree of tolerance and grace that we extend to each other to listen to each other to understand. It's like, well, so how do you see the world, you know, as I've been as a Canadian from the West Coast, it can be really hard to understand, you know, how different people see the world, you know, it's just like us, but that's not how we, how we did it back

Roger: home.

And it's like, it's okay. I'd, I'd imagine the more sides of mirrors in the kaleidoscope is what paints different pictures.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's true. At least that's how it was explained to me.

Roger: Maybe we have to go break apart a kaleidoscope if you really understand it. I think we'd enjoy that. So what did you believe early on about? Sharing multiple perspectives or being that kaleidoscope for others that you've come to learn is not true for you. I

Rick: remember when I first moved to Hong Kong.

There are things they did that just I didn't do in my small town in Canada, right? You know, it was just it was just a different it was such a different society and you know There's that initial culture shock. It's like well, you know, it comes to be sort of initially It's kind of like right and wrong.

It's like well, why are they doing that? And then you realize Actually, it makes more sense the way they do And you know, then then it's sort of then you should you make that shift and adoption And I think that's the willingness to hold some things a little bit more lightly. And then as you go through that sort of growth and development, you start to own and becomes more solidified in who you are.

But yet, so like I used to tell my students, it's like, I really, honestly, and I say this with all respect and love, I don't care what you believe. I really don't, but, uh, if whatever you arrive at and what the position and the basic practice base that you have, I would love for it to be thoughtful, so it's something that you can own and you at least understand all of the other options, because if you don't understand all the other options, how are you ever going to say that you own this and plant your flag and say, this is what matters to me.

And I, and I think it's that sort of giving yourself a space for the time of growth and development and learning. And not planting the flag because the provincialism of it is, you know, it's like, well, this is what we grew up with. This is what we've always known. Everything else is wrong. And dammit, it's going to be this way.

And it's like, but why just because you do it in small town, Canada doesn't mean that it's necessarily right. It's called being provincial.

Roger: So are you ready for the lightning round?

Rick: Uh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'll sit up straight.

Roger: Um, so fill in the blank. Being a kaleidoscope is? Engaging. Who in your life is a kaleidoscope for you?

Rick: Linda Wagoner.

Roger: Is there a practice or routine that helps you grow, nurture, or renew your ability to be a kaleidoscope for others?

Rick: Uh, no, I'm not a, I'm not a routine person.

Roger: What is one thing that gets in your way of being a kaleidoscope for others?

Rick: Uh, vulnerability.

Roger: What word or phrase describes what being a kaleidoscope feels like when it's had a positive impact on others?

Rick: I'd call it good, but in the sense that it's satisfying, feels like it's in alignment with who I want to be, meaning sort of morally good, and then it's also excellence, so it's good in those three, sort of Bill Damon and Csikszentmihalyi's book, Good Work, um, that sort of thing, just feels, there's a certain goodness in it, but, yeah.

There's a sense of beauty in life that, that there's a, there's a sense of beauty to this thing, even though it seems chaotic and haywire from the outside. So there's that sense of goodness and beauty, right? That, um, but anyway, yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Roger: when you said good. There is an element of the divinity in that. Yeah.

Yeah. If we're, if we're able to provide these things that provide meaning for us, but be able to create the space where others can tap into it and, you know, either solve issues or be more human with each other, create a better existence with one another. That seems like we're doing good work.

Rick: Yeah.

Roger: Yeah. I think that's

Rick: true.

Yeah.

Roger: If a listener wanted to ask you a question or follow up with you, where do you want to point them to?

Rick: Our company is Modus. Um, and they're more than welcome to, to be in touch with me, um, either by email Yeah, that's probably the prefer preferable way. I've I've also enjoyed our conversations a great deal.

It's just, there's certain people it's like iron sharpens iron and then there are other people it's sort of things, um, it's almost like there's a sparking and an engagement and fun and yours has always been the, the engaging and the fun. So thank, thank you for your relationship. I've enjoyed it a great deal.

Roger: Yeah, likewise. So iron strengthens iron. Does that mean like fleece softens fleece?

And I'm good with it.

Thank you for being part of this conversation for sharing what you know to be true about being a kaleidoscope. Um, as I was bringing up, uh, Flow I didn't You mentioned how, when you're in flow state, you don't know what time it is and how long this is, um, you're, you're engaged in something. And at that moment, I'm like, I don't know how long we've been talking.

I know I looked up and I went, Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we might've been in flow together as we were talking through this conversation, which means that it was, um, well, I'll speak for myself, it was enriching, it was generative, it was generous on your part. So. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

And I look forward to the next time we get to talk.

Rick: Likewise, Roger. You're you're you're it's a delight getting to know you. It's been a pleasure. So thanks for taking your time.

Roger: I want to say thank you once again, to Rick for sharing something so profound. In a humble way, he spoke from a depth of experiences that is compelling and engaging and a shout out to our friend and previous guest, Kellee Franklin, for introducing me to Rick. I'm super grateful.

The question I'm asking myself after this conversation is, well, actually, the first question is, if I can say chicks on my high correctly, three times in a row, do I achieve flow state?

But more seriously, how can I catch myself when I'm looking through a microscope when I should be looking through a kaleidoscope?

What Do You Know To Be True? is a three blue pens production. And I'm your host, Roger Kastner.

We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people to discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you may be on go to https://native-lands.ca

Be well, my friends.

And as a callback for my friend, Kellee: Love you, mean it.