Adaptability and Resilience with Bill Hefferman

[00:00:00] And this isn't saying that they're perfect, right? Because or that any of us are perfect or that even myself like some people might get the idea Well, oh my gosh, you know so much about this stuff. You must always be resilient and it's like yeah if only right

[00:00:14] Wouldn't that be great? But I find as much inspiration From from other people demonstrating this as I do from my own study and in practice of it Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the What Do You Know To Be True podcast in these conversations

[00:00:37] I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill A superhero power as I like to call it Not to try to emulate it or hack our way to a new talent Instead, I'm interested in what inspired them to develop this talent

[00:00:52] And how they think about their superhero power The intention is to learn more about their experience with their superhero power and in doing so Maybe we can learn something about the special talent in each of us that make us unique

[00:01:06] This conversation is with Bill Hefferman and his talent in helping others with resilience and adaptability Professionally Bill guides teams and leaders through tough issues and challenging times He's an expert facilitator and engaging instructor and for over 30 years

[00:01:24] He has led initiatives across the range of companies and cultures and countries His known as a passionate expert on leading for resilience and adaptability Bill offers principles, tools and techniques for all to grow and flourish through the nonstop adversity and uncertainty that's so much

[00:01:43] Part of our world today Bill has been sharing what he's learned about adaptability and resilience with co-workers, clients, conference attendees, people who are incarcerated And many, many more for so many years And today we get to add ourselves to that list of people who he's shared

[00:02:02] What he's learned about helping others with resilience and adaptability From being a peace core volunteer teaching math and science in the Paul To backpacking the Pacific Coast Trail to surviving and thriving in corporate America Bill brings a wealth of first hand experience to his resilience and adaptability practice

[00:02:23] While he can do amazing things with a harmonica and Frisbee We're going to focus today's conversation on resilience and adaptability We'll talk about how resilience and adaptability helps us not only cope and perform in moments of stress and adversity

[00:02:39] But how those skills allow us to be more present in those moments So that we can learn the lessons that those opportunities of stress and adversity have to offer So that we can become stronger people and live more rich lives Because we had those experiences

[00:02:58] If you're ready, let's dive in Good morning Bill, how are you doing? Fantastic, Roger, how are you? I'm doing great. I am really excited to be having this conversation in fact When I started thinking about this podcast

[00:03:15] I thought about this conversation as being a perfect example of talking to someone about their extraordinary talent And you know, no offense but sometimes I refer to it as ordinary people with an extraordinary talent And you don't really, you definitely have the extraordinary talent

[00:03:35] I want to call you ordinary though Exactly, don't ever call me that Superhero talent that I want to talk with you about today is how you've been helping leaders and teams face adversity and ambiguity through resilience And you've been not only a student of resilience

[00:03:58] But you've also been sharing for at least the last ten years that I've known you in workshops and conferences with clients So I'm really excited to have this conversation to learn a little bit more about how you think about sharing resilience with others

[00:04:25] Not only having that talent developed for yourself but the sharing of it So let's start off by going back to the beginning Let's go back to the origins of what inspired you to learn more about resilience and sharing that with others

[00:04:45] Well, so it was actually about 22, 23 years ago When I had just been hired into a household name, high tech company here in Portland, Oregon And I was hired in as an organization development professional

[00:05:04] To a business group that was getting shut down with the dot common plosion of very large business group Hundreds of people who were being redeployed and who's you know heavy job impacts and one of my colleagues

[00:05:21] I was talking to them about about our normal tools and tricks for managing change around communicating and training And all the usual stuff that particularly at that time we were thinking of with regard to managing change

[00:05:38] Wasn't really cutting it for these people whose lives were being severely impacted and she said, well, do you know about resilience? Yeah, obviously we know about resilience

[00:05:49] But she was no, no it's like it's a discipline and there's a thing and there's a guy here in Portland name Al Ceper We wrote a book called the resiliency advantage and she knew him and she put me in contact with him

[00:06:01] So I started talking to him and just got really enamored with the topic And you know and the reason why it just struck me as being so important is several reasons

[00:06:17] One is it occurred to me that resilience, no it is a social phenomenon but it's a largely at the same time a self-driven phenomenon And something that I can choose to do for myself and have it said I can develop for myself

[00:06:36] And also I thought it sort of spoke to me about my own life philosophy at the time and and the benefit of you know really working on yourself and adapting to your own situation

[00:06:56] It's not like I had a horrible childhood or anything but there but definitely some dysfunctionality growing up through which I and most of my other siblings Somehow found a way to flourish and and I just really loved stories of people who were able to flourish

[00:07:17] Not just in spite of conditions, but ultimately because of conditions That that we became greater through our through our struggles and our challenges that we face One time you shared

[00:07:36] With I one of the groups that we were consulting with you shared the idea that a well-live life has not a stress for your life Right, yeah and that you know I got that from I got that from Kelly McGonagall and her

[00:07:58] Ted Talk how to make stress your friend as well as the book that you wrote after the TED Talk called the upside of stress in which she actually calls on the the research of some of her own research

[00:08:14] But largely of of her colleagues research at Stanford University doctor Alia Crum Alia Crum who runs the is a principal investigator for the Stanford Mind Body Institute or Mind Body Lab

[00:08:28] And Alia's done a lot of research into what resilience mindset in what she calls the stress as enhancing mindset That when we lean into our the challenges that we face And look at what's going on in any particular big problem or challenge that we're facing

[00:08:53] There there's meaning there and that when we turn our attention to You know what really matters here in terms of my own values in terms of trying to have a positive impact We ultimately find Meaning in that and

[00:09:11] There's both psychological and physiological or neurophysiological reasons for that that when we turn toward meaning We turn towards oxytocin and which which ultimately is and and what and it's what makes Turning toward meaning in crisis It slips the switch on that crisis being from a very stressful

[00:09:37] Debilitating you know cardiovascular, challenging event into one that is in fact With oxytocin it flips the switch on our chemistry and turns it into a vasodilator And this is why people who embrace stress and change in difficulty

[00:09:57] And and turn toward that meaning ultimately do better who way better in terms of longevity and overall health and in life outcomes Before we get too far how would you define resilience? Several ways

[00:10:17] So there's different aspects of it so the first aspect is the one that we're familiar with if I asked you to think of somebody that you That is habitually resilient in the face of difficulty

[00:10:30] You could think of those people in in your life and if I asked you to think of those qualities and characteristics of that that person that sort of resilience role model if you will

[00:10:41] You know you know what that looks like it's like I don't know what resilience is but I'll know what I see it And so but it's that ability to to roll with the punches water off a ducks back you just

[00:10:53] You cope with the things in a positive resourceful productive way With adversity change uncertainty It also has that physical part of the description of resilience something that is resilient Springs back to how it was when it's stretched pressed bent etc

[00:11:15] And and so there's that bounce back which is really an important part of that definition because When you It's not about being perfect and about always being bulletproof and never being vulnerable It's about being vulnerable being human getting knocked down But then

[00:11:34] Dustin yourself off and getting up and getting back into the flow of things And then finally The The last aspect that I think is really important about resilience is this I'm not so super fond of the term but this sort of anti fragile this sort of anti fragility

[00:11:54] But what that speaks to is that More importantly is that Resilience isn't just about bouncing back to where you were but you bounce forward It's always it's almost like a healicle You know elevation in your life of your personal and emotional development

[00:12:11] That as you face challenges and as you bounce back through these things you come back Smarter, wiser, more connected If I asked you to think of If I Asked you to think of something That you don't find difficult today that ten or twenty years ago you found difficult

[00:12:33] It's because of that bouncing forward of when you face challenges And I remember One time describing resilience as being that rubber band And yet the problem with that analogy is usually a rubber band that comes back after being stretched

[00:12:52] Comes back to its original state and the problem with that metaphor is that You know through resilience The rubber band actually should be stronger Right And therefore it's more like a muscle The more you use a muscle, the more it does break down

[00:13:09] But in the healing it becomes stronger Yeah, actually that's a really great analogy I think it is definitely more like a muscle in effect That's what a lot of people use that That analogy but it's not just an analogy

[00:13:24] It's reality that you know in terms of our bodies Particularly in terms of our muscular development They don't get stronger by getting torn down a bit Well Bill I think I think most of the things I've learned about resilience

[00:13:38] I've learned it from you so I'm sure that wasn't analogy you used with me before Or I had the privilege of being able to hear you talk about it So what motivates you to

[00:13:53] I mean obviously there's a person, you know there's a personal benefit to learning about resilience But then you go the next step To share that information with a lot of people With your colleagues, with your clients As I said before in workshops and conferences

[00:14:12] I've seen you in many different forums Spread the gospel of resilience What motivates you to do that You know it's a great question Several things so from a personal perspective I have found through my life And even before that moment back in 2001 during the dot come in close

[00:14:39] When I heard about resilience from my colleague and then from Al Cbert Even before then that this The benefit of and the lived I had this lived experience of Bouncing back from challenges and it just became a Philosophy or a life strategy for

[00:15:04] Excelleling and so and for being happy ultimately And fulfilled The other thing is that I see And here from people the impact that this information has And that Particularly in the last several years Before the pandemic

[00:15:31] It was a pretty popular topic and you know once I talked about it With folks who are like oh yeah, I know that makes a lot of sense And I could you know yes I am resilient to at times And here's what I do et cetera

[00:15:44] But for the last several years It's really with with the increases in Burnout and the great resignation And you know quiet quitting and all that stuff And not to mention just the rise In mental health issues around the world

[00:16:04] Increases in loneliness and anxiety and depression and all that That being able to provide people Some skills and some principles For maintaining a more even kill and for flourishing Through all that difficulty and challenge It just light it light me up because I see them light up

[00:16:28] And I get I just get such a buzz from From really feeling like I'm making a positive contribution to people's lives Is there a virtuous cycle where That then helps you be more resilient yourself Seeing other people become more resilient Does that help you become more resilient?

[00:16:47] I think that's true of all of us I am so inspired by other people in my life That that demonstrate that resilience in the face of incredible Difficulty and hardship When I talk to people who are in the middle of dealing with cancer Or some major life struggle

[00:17:14] And they show up In a A resilient adaptable way And this isn't saying that they're perfect Because or that any of us are perfect Or that even myself like Some people might get the idea of oh my gosh You know so much about this stuff

[00:17:34] You must always be resilient Then it's like if only I find as much inspiration From from other people demonstrating this as I do From my own study and in practice of it One of the things I I realized recently that I really want to share again

[00:17:53] And something I've produced before but I haven't shared it in a while Is this sort of a resilience is is not side by side, diagram Of and Resilience Is not an individual sport Resilience is not You know golf or Singles tennis or whatever but that it's

[00:18:19] You know pick your analogy it's it's football football is life Thank you Danny Ross So Yeah, there's definitely a strong social component which is why it's you know we all Work we need to be there for each other Leaders need to be there for their followers

[00:18:41] Followers need to be there for each other team members need to be there for each other family members need to be there for each other And that when when they are when we are Connected before another socially and showing up in a way that is more

[00:18:53] Supported more resilient more resourceful For for others it really Create that what you're talking about that virtuous that virtuous cycle and and when other show up for us in that way when we're down in the dumps, you know

[00:19:09] It's might be hard to believe but sometimes I get anxious and challenged and struggle myself and I get the same encouragement From others that they get from me Not too long ago I heard about the concept of a

[00:19:26] Resolient shepherd and it's that oh yeah, that person the person on the team that Helps other people be more resilient and I think that's a little bit of what you're talking about here where you see other people being resilient and it's

[00:19:42] It's motivating for you have you seen or have you studied What do you know About teams and having that the concept of a resilient shepherd and is that

[00:19:56] I'm curious if that's usually one person or if that's a share growl that gets passed around and in context. What do you know about that? Like with most things Organizationaly it's really the leader and the leaders that have the strongest leverage in setting that tone

[00:20:15] And there's some research that we shared in Gabriela Calamens and Martin Seligman's latest book called Tomorrow Mind in which There's this really interesting section on resilience there and the in which they say that People who report to a resilient leader are three times as likely to be resilience

[00:20:44] And 50% more productive and 30% more creative et cetera And that so those you know when you think about the ultimate Resolient's shepherd is really that leader who's able to show up Strong Humble Service oriented Compassionally oriented

[00:21:11] Also and does all those things that that I talk about and that the research suggests Resolient leaders are people who lead for resilience demonstrate these qualities and behaviors But but but again It doesn't have to be a formal A formal leader a person who is a leader positionally

[00:21:33] But can also be anyone on the team Yeah, we've been on teams where you know the the leader is the role model And then we've been on teams where that might not be true

[00:21:44] And so there's capabilities or skills that yeah it's almost like in spite of the leader we will We will thrive It's particularly tough I think That with that leader that that is showing up You know as In the in their less as their less resilient resourceful self

[00:22:08] I mean we all we all go there. We all panic, you know and no one has to be perfect But it's really about what's that what's that habit that they what where do they have vitrially going if they have It literally go

[00:22:22] To the yelling and the screaming and the micromanaging and the you know all that stuff that that non-resolient leaders do

[00:22:32] It can really damage a team and it's I think is super hard for for 18 with that situation to really flourish fully in the way that they have potential to Not too long ago you were sharing with me this concept of the evolutionary advantage of joy

[00:22:54] And you know obviously there's an evolutionary advantage to fear When we were you know when we were drinking at the water hole and something is wrestling around in the bush Or it made a low atmosphere off and we're running back to the middle of the herd

[00:23:15] But this idea of the evolutionary advantage of joy Seems to be the flip side of that could you say a little bit more about that and how Being more resilient right helps you access joy

[00:23:32] It's great and it's funny. It's also works the other way I think joy also helped us access resilience. I was listening to a podcast yesterday with with Michael's your a actually You got me thinking about him again and

[00:23:45] And I forget who the guest was but in positive psychology the guy talks so Fred Bryant who talks about savoring and I was thinking about joy and and as it relates to the Psychological tool the positive psychological tool of of savoring and

[00:24:03] Fred said something really interesting is that getting Less unhappy Doesn't necessarily make you more happy That that those are separate phenomena so so when if you think of

[00:24:20] The analogy as you know that I like to use and thinking about resilience is a horizontal line and that if you're below the line You're in that non-rezyrent non resource hole not coping well with things fight flight freeze kind of state

[00:24:33] And that when you're above the line you're in this resilient resourceful joyful, etc And those skills and tools that can help you go from those super negative unhappy Not coping well states up to you know to get up towards that line that midpoint

[00:24:52] Aren't the same skills that will elevate you into those upper reaches of being above the line and that's where Joy and gratitude and Savoring and Mindset and positivity and creativity and collaboration all these things Where that comes to four

[00:25:14] And and you can think of it in terms of of Psycho emotional Boyancy that When you Experience these more elevated states of Joy and happiness and connection It acts as a bit of a buffer To getting pulled down Below the line And the other thing about

[00:25:46] Joy that I Really like is in it comes from There's a way of thinking about joy in terms of it being Not like this explosion of ecstasy like oh my god

[00:25:59] I went to this concert last night and it was just so inspiring and I mean there's that kind of joy But then but those are always accessible and and Every day every moment we have available to us these little micro moments of joy

[00:26:13] That in polyvagal theory they might they call glimmers And and a glimmer is like a little micro burst of Connection of meaning of joy of beauty That you purposefully look for in your life knowing normally experiences glimmers

[00:26:32] In terms of you know the sunlight coming through the window in a particular way or or a funny interaction among babies or kids or cats or cat videos or whatever These little moments are and And they and the more you have bit to each yourself

[00:26:52] Towards looking for those glimmers The more you see them as you develop the habit of Looking for those little joyful moments in those little glimmers that you then habituate yourself To that That makes me think that one of the reasons why you Share so much about resilience is

[00:27:17] You see the impact and that gives you joy Does that sound true? Your premise to the beginning of this was that you know what your what your fastball what your what your super power

[00:27:29] And for me, I'm really a short what I like to in my 30 years as an organization development professional voice At one point it hit on me that I'm a short haul carrier that I'm not that guy you're going to stick on a project for for months on end

[00:27:44] But if you give me that short term mission of Showing up for a conference showing up for a group of people showing up for An experience that I've designed And then able to deliver that whole process of Being given that mission

[00:28:02] Thinking about that group of people designing a solution for them and then delivering that there's such an incredible energy and connection that happened When I give people in it have people break out into you know try ads or repairs and Share stories about

[00:28:20] Their own personal resilience role models or something like that and then the go and sit with people and listen in on these conversations They just really like me up because I'm like yes, this is where this is real. It's this is helpful

[00:28:35] I'm having an impact on these people's lives And if you think about in terms of like what kind of junky I am it's like it is

[00:28:43] It's that's that's really my that's really my drug of choice is being able to orchestrate these kinds of human interactions and seeing them unfold So Bill, what do you know to be true about resilience so I've been at this for 22 plus years

[00:29:03] Studying this topic and the thing that I was really Only made mindful of In the last seven years or so it's not a technique. It's not a gimmick

[00:29:17] It can be and some of those gimmicks and tricks can help ultimately is really your core beliefs and assumptions your mindset about About the nature of difficulty in the nature of life and the nature of challenge and the more that you can lean into That challenge mindset

[00:29:40] The more that you can lean into That stress as enhancing mindset The stronger your resilience will be This is another strong point around what I know to be true is that

[00:29:58] If we can leverage the power of the pause, the sacred pause and just when we're all spinning and Ruminating in our heads and filled with anxiety and worry getting pulled down the drain into the you know both way below the line

[00:30:15] Trying to fight your way out of that those depths of despair and rumination from that state of being is not very effective Einstein said something to the effect of our problems

[00:30:29] Can not be solved at the level with the same mindset at the level of which they were created or something like that You need to think differently. You need to be and do differently to change your state and oftentimes what that takes is

[00:30:46] This is another thing that I know to be true is that one of the Fundamental core practices of resilience

[00:30:55] That serves us really well is simple mindfulness of being able to drop into a present state and take a step back and look at the big picture and look at things objectively and go Okay, I'm feeling pretty stressed and this bad thing just happened and

[00:31:14] I'm feeling kind of anxious about that and that's okay And I'm going to practice this sort of radical acceptance of just what is and not judge it and just be where I am right now And from that state of

[00:31:32] Presence and of here and now kind of accepting non judging presence We don't have to fight so hard to get back oftentimes will sort of You know through Brownian motion find ourselves

[00:31:49] Getting back into a more neutral state and then from there we'll have greater access to our more of our Tools and tricks of joy and gratitude and and reframing about how we look and see things

[00:32:04] And then one last thing that I should say that I really know to be true in resilience is that Just it kind of comes back to mindset but that but reframing how we're thinking about things

[00:32:20] Being able to and that takes that pause that mindfulness and then from there being able to say okay So what's the what's the positive challenge here or what's the opportunity here? So what I love about what you just shared is I was thinking about the old

[00:32:42] Saying stop stop drop and roll. Now that's when you're on fire, which you may or may not be applicable in this situation But having you know you said having that mindset and I might have stepped on the punchline earlier where

[00:32:57] You'd previously shared this idea that a well-live life does not stress free live So you know the absence of stress the absence of Of change and adversity like one probably not going to happen any you know in any situation

[00:33:14] But maybe that as you said the radical acceptance that mindset that there will be moments like this Then the you know when it is happening that ability to be present to get in the moment because a lot of the things

[00:33:27] I think that are fueling the reactions or things that will happen outside of the moment that You will need to be deal with that could be really Really big impactful things but in the moment

[00:33:42] Those things are not happening and so all you can do is control that moment, so being radically present And controlling the controllable you can control the In focusing on what can I actually do at in this moment

[00:33:58] And then the third thing of again sort of shifting it to like what's the positive what's the opportunity to flourish? What's the opportunity to overcome?

[00:34:10] How can I look at this in a positive and grow from this experience and not just look at it as a negative or a threat right?

[00:34:21] Right and what's that bigger than self with my bigger than self goal here is another one that I had another reframe that I really love And then also you were talking about you know, how can I grow from this so having that growth mindset

[00:34:36] That says okay, I'm not a master of this situation yet What do I need to learn here in dealing with it? What's something that you thought to be true about resilience early on that you have come to learn is not true?

[00:34:59] Yeah, great question so there are all great questions Roger but just I like this one. The several things I Used to be And it's still am to a certain extent a vers

[00:35:19] To what what some what we would ordinarily think of as negative emotions sort of but through they're not negative emotions or it's just energy energy and motion

[00:35:30] And this is a problem that some people have with positive psychology and it's a misinterpretation in my mind of what positive psychology is that it's not a it's not happyology. It's not how to just be happy all the time.

[00:35:43] I mean because there are definite advantages to positivity into having that sort of glass half full perspective but at the same time. It can also be particularly when we're helping others.

[00:35:59] It can turn into toxic positivity where our expectation is well, you know, we're feeling uncomfortable with other people's discomfort. And so then we demand of them to be happy. So 23 years ago here I am like in my early 40s when I was really starting to study this.

[00:36:20] And I was more oriented towards that sort of happyology and more like we just we should just be more positive. Which is true to a certain extent, but then I've developed this more nuanced understanding that we got to be real and that while we while these.

[00:36:43] Challenging emotions anxiety worry frustration come into us or come into our lives. We we don't have to shut them, you know, shut the door in their face and pretend they're not there.

[00:37:02] But but we don't need to you know overly indulge them either so or make them bigger or more real than they are and that's where I think. Mindfulness and acceptance come in of where you can and again this is simple not easy.

[00:37:19] Is being able to accept and be with where you are there's some of those more challenging emotions that some people might think of as being quote negative emotions like grief and sadness but those are having experienced parental loss in the last few years of my in laws and my own mother.

[00:37:39] And getting into this in some some depth of grief around those but then feeling from that are learning from that that they're not those are bad things to feel and and they're just very natural things to feel and they serve a purpose.

[00:38:00] And and there's as there's a sweetness and a connection in it and there's a term of psychologically rich life which is really interesting concept. There are people who have who are prone to having more psychologically rich lives which tends to correlate with higher levels of.

[00:38:22] Meaning and and purpose but not necessarily with that sort of hedonic like isn't life fantastic sort of isn't life always joyful. I'm sorry I have like a child like sense of joy this morning and everything you're talking about I'm I'm sort of like connecting to.

[00:38:41] The the Bobby McFerran comment or this idea, you know now I have the song in in my head from the Lego kids movie everything is awesome. And the idea is like if everything's awesome is anything awesome.

[00:38:58] So so it like to know grief you also need to know joy right to know sadness you also need to know love not that these things are necessarily opposites but to have that full range.

[00:39:11] Right of you know what what we consider positive and negative emotions makes life more rich or valuable more of an experience than if it's just monochromatic.

[00:39:28] Right very much so I think that's what Fred Bryant was actually saying in this podcast with Michael Jueve is that when we shut ourselves off from feeling and experiencing those challenging emotions.

[00:39:43] We we attenuate or or damp and the highs as well that our ability to really feel enjoy and love and connection. And I think that's also related to what I was talking about in terms of a psychologically rich life. Okay, Bill are you ready for a lightning round.

[00:40:03] Yeah let's give it a try. Which do you prefer? Is it a friend you is yoga or a deep meditation session deep meditation I'm a meditation guy. What's your go to pizza or tacos? Oh tacos that could even yeah put it in no important. So good.

[00:40:25] When you're going on a retreat do you head for the water or do you head for the mountains mountains. When learning something new do you prefer to listen read or watch. Listen. A favorite book or movie you've recently watched and would recommend you know Ted Lazo of course.

[00:40:45] So I love things that make me that both. One is why Ted Lazo is so great it's that they they're they're poignant. But they're also super humorous and just touches in a really and positive I'd say, you know just in a really empowering and lifting enlighteningly.

[00:41:06] Film the black resilience is a team sport. same more about that. This is the thing that I think people might resist or push back against in resilience is is there misunderstanding of resilience it's like when somebody saying be resilient.

[00:41:27] It we're almost telling that person that they're solely responsible for their flourishing and well being. When in fact we're we do depend upon one another and our social connections and that goes back to the Harvard.

[00:41:46] Study of you know following these men these people over 75 years starting in the 20s these Harvard undergraduate they follow them and for and then also people in the community next to Harvard.

[00:42:00] And and the thing that was hands down most predictive of a happy flourishing positive existence was having deep meaning for social connections. So bill before we go where if people wanted to learn more about resilience and to learn more about Bill hefferman where would you point them to.

[00:42:21] That's great so that the couple places few places. Bill have from in dot com you'll find me there and find most of the links and how to contact me and you can even set up some time with me I've a calendar a schedule link there.

[00:42:38] There's LinkedIn of course just search for Bill have from him is only one of me out there.

[00:42:43] And then I'm starting to publish on sub stack and so they can find me at billhefferman dot sub stack dot com and and there I'll be publishing articles on a blog you know for to 600 word things is what I'm aiming for I think.

[00:43:13] At least two times a month possibly more if they're in Portland and they want to see you play the harmonica what what's the. What's the. And where do you guys play yeah it's it's it's called the. The pagan jug band it's sort of a blue grass inspired Americana.

[00:43:33] Folk band. And we play every third Tuesday from six to nine at a really great well known Portland music venue called the Laurel thirst it's an area called Laurel hers but it's called the Laurel thirst pub.

[00:43:53] And every third Tuesday yeah come find us pagan jug band you can also find us on Facebook and. Thank you very much thank you for this conversation thank you for. For.

[00:44:04] Yeah the dedication you've put into learning about resilience and not only showing up for the teams that I've been able to be a part of where you have been that resilient shepherd where you've been that role model.

[00:44:19] And then really dedicating a large part of your professional career to sharing what you've learned about resilience and that. Every time you and I talk you have learned something new about resilience and so you're constantly evolving that knowledge and that what she share and it is a gift.

[00:44:37] That you give all of us so thank you for doing that and thank you for sharing your insights today. Yeah thanks Roger and you've been you asked earlier about like.

[00:44:46] Are there other people in my life that that you know provide that same inspiration you are definitely one of those I consider you a fellow traveler along the path of. Greater living through resilience and adaptability so. Wow well thank you that's an honor.

[00:45:04] Okay my friend until next time be well. All right thanks. Thank you. A big thank you to Bill have for men for sharing his insights and knowledge about resilience and adaptability and for bringing his own theme music.

[00:45:20] That's right the music today was provided by Bill stay tuned for the outtakes to hear the complete song if you want I'm grateful whenever I get to hear him share his experiences and both learning and teaching others about resilience and adaptability.

[00:45:34] I love how he breaks down that while resilience does help with dealing with stress and adversity.

[00:45:40] It is resilience and adaptability that helps us bounce forward and become stronger because we went through that challenge to borrow an idea from the TV show Ted Lasseau resilience and adaptability or what helps you grow even stronger when you go through the messy middle parts of any journey or experience.

[00:46:00] Bill also shared an important perspective from Kelly McGonagall that I think is worth remembering. A well-lived life is not a stress free life.

[00:46:10] This conversation is an opportunity for us to consider how does stress and adversity impact our own superhero powers and going deeper does our response to stress and adversity enable our talents to shine brighter and have a more meaningful impact on others.

[00:46:27] It does our response have a negative or dimming effect on our superhero powers and if so, where do we want to work on our resilience and adaptability to increase the potency of our talent?

[00:46:40] So we could have a bigger impact on others as Bill would suggest working on resilience and adaptability can help us wherever we are on this response continuum to stress and adversity. So there's no better time to start.

[00:46:54] If you're not sure what your superpower is, one way to learn is to ask a trusted friend or colleague as a heads up they are likely to ask you what you think their superhero power is so be ready with a response and advance.

[00:47:10] So much good stuff in this conversation. I'm grateful to Bill for continuing to share what he knows to be true about resilience and adaptability so that we can all be better and learn as we go through those messy middle parts of our lives and show up even stronger for our family friends teammates in ways that help them be even more resilient to.

[00:47:34] And thank you all for listening in. If you like this episode, please do us a favor and give us a review or click that like button whichever platform you're on. Thank you for doing that. It's a great way to help others discover the podcast.

[00:47:47] What do you know to be true is a three blue pens production I'm your host Roger Casner we are recording on the ancestral lands of the do we're mission to quamish people to discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people who's land to you might be on.

[00:48:03] Please go to native hyphen lands.ca be well my friends and Bill. Now I forgot in the question. This is the outtake okay. Thank you.

[00:48:28] Anyway, so that's that's what I think I've learned really in how my things have evolved over the last 20 years is to become just more embracing of and more accepting of the dark side.

[00:48:41] In our community, you're known for being a disciple of resilience as well as for playing the harmonica and this is possibly one of the longest times you and I've had a conversation where you haven't.

[00:48:52] You know, whipped out the harmonica and start playing I know it's within reach you can go ahead and play us a tune right now. I don't know let's see it's funny we'll see how it picks up on the mic and what is this thing this is a.

[00:49:10] A C and G what is this. Can you hear that? Drop a.