Following Your Curiosity to Find Truth and Joy | Beth Collier

TRANSCIPT Following Your Curiosity to Finding Truth and Joy with Beth Collier

Beth: I think curiosity does lead to joy. I think the ability for us to make connections with people and also to learn new things can be very joyful. And there's, I mean, there's plenty of research of like what happens to the brain when you learn and when you are following your curiosity, you're going to learn something.

And when you are connecting with another person. That is something that can bring you joy as well. We need connection and when you can ask questions and find, you know, something that you share in common or just something that you think that's. Interesting. I, I didn't know that about you, or I didn't know about that.

That thing was, it's fun to learn. And so I think the joy, there's a lot of joy in the discovery. 

Roger: I'm sure you know a few deeply curious people, the ones that ask a lot of questions and who wanna understand the why behind the why, and maybe the why behind that. I wanted to better understand that deeply curious mind.

So I reached out to the author of the Curious Minds Newsletter. Beth Collier so I could learn more. 

Beth: You've, you've gotta be deliberate. I think about it if you, if you wanna be curious because that's something, Roger, I used to think, um, in terms of like things you got wrong about curiosity, I just thought it was kind of like having blue eyes, like it was no big deal.

Like it was just. Just a trait you have, but actually I now see it as a really valuable trait because not everyone is this way. 

Roger: Beth takes us on this journey, how she approaches her wide ranging topics from imposter syndrome and women's suffrage to the finished practice of drinking alone at home. In your underwear, Beth shares that her experiences with curiosity sometimes results in empathy and joy, and yet sometimes it ends in disappointment.

That the path is always taken in pursuit of the truth. 

Beth: This is why I feel like media literacy and critical thinking are becoming more and more important because we've gotta ask those questions. Like we've, you know, when somebody puts a joke in Wikipedia and then it gets taken is like, yes, Beth Collier is a three time gold medal winning Oly Olympic, you know, whatever.

That might not be true. I mean, if someone wants to say, I am I, I mean, there are worse things of being accused of, I suppose. It's just giving you insight and I find that really, really interesting because if we have insight to maybe people's situations, we can have a little bit more empathy to who they are, you know, or, or why they are the way they are.

Roger: Welcome to the What Do You Know To Be True Podcast. I'm Roger Caster. For over 25 years, I've been working with leaders and teams to explore and co-design new ways of thinking, working together, and taking action so that they can unlock their potential and create meaningful impact. I. In these conversations, I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary scale, their superpowers, and the meaningful impact it has on others.

The goal is not to try to emulate our hacker way to a new talent. Instead, the intention is to learn more about their experience with their superpower. And in doing so, maybe we can learn something about the special talent in each of us that drives us towards our potential and living into our possibilities.

If you're curious. Let's dive in.

Hey, Beth, thanks for joining me today. I'm grateful for the conversation we're about to have. 

Beth: Well, thanks for inviting me, Roger. It's nice to see you. 

Roger: I'm really excited to learn more about your superpower of curiosity, but first, I want to know a little bit more about you. What I do know about you. You're a wonderful writer where you explore the things you're curious about and it.

It's covered a remarkable range of topics from creativity to pop culture, from history to business strategy. But before we go too far, what else is important for us to know about you? 

Beth: Well, you, you've touched on part of it with curiosity. I think the curiosity kind of leads into a lot of my life story of, I'm from the US originally.

I grew up in the Midwest, in Indiana, and then I've lived and worked in California. Um, moved to New Zealand. And then now live in London. And I've spent my whole life kind of working in communication, helping people really get their points across, helping them with public speaking and storytelling. But previously through, through corporates.

But now I do that on my own, through my own consultancy. 

Roger: And as a communication expert, it's no surprise that you enjoy writing. And with a superpower of curiosity, it makes sense that you would write about the things you're curious about. However, what surprises me is the depth of research of your topics, and you demonstrate that your curiosity is like on steroids.

In your writing, you make the interesting. Fascinating. Whether you're writing about the finished practice of drinking at home alone in your underwear, the life and legacy of Mc Hammer, which as a Bay Area, you know, that's growing up in, in the Bay Area. I'm a big fan. Mm-hmm. Or why every watch advertisement has the watch face pointing at 10, 10 plus or minus a minute.

Mm-hmm. And once I read that, I see it everywhere now. Yep. I've told people and they tell me they now see it everywhere, and I'm like. You gotta read Curious Minds by Beth. You not only tell the story, you tell the story behind the story in such a fun and enjoyable way. My first question for you is when you're looking for something to write about, I.

How do you know that certain topic will have the depth and intrigue to be worthy of your style of writing? 

Beth: Aw. Well, first of all, thank you for the, the kind words that's so nice to hear. I write about a variety of things. I have made reference before to how Taylor Swift talks about her songwriting that she has, you know, the quill and the fountain pen and the glitter gel pen.

Songs. So like, it's different sort of genres and that's how I feel with curious minds. There are things that are really deep and serious. Um, I did a big piece last year looking into women's suffrage because I realized I didn't really know that much about it from US history, like other than you know, a few women's names and there was a whole story and a woman named Matilda Gage who I had never learned about, I don't think.

Many, if any, people would've learned about her in school. But a huge part of that story. And that took, I mean, I read like a 500 page book on the history of women's suffrage. I spoke to an expert, um, had a lot of like, in-depth, like, just researched so much about that because I thought it was such an interesting topic and one that we should know about, but, but we probably don't.

But then there'll be other things that, it's just something just kind of hits me of like. With the mc hammer that was getting a birthday card that opened up and played. You Can't Touch This. And explaining that song to my children and going back to 1989 and remembering what that summer was like when that video was on MTV all of the time and thinking, you know, whatever happened to Mc Hammer.

It's interesting as you get older, Roger, when you have these moments from, you know, your childhood or teen years or young adult years that you realize. A whole new generation has no idea what those things are. You know, it's kind of like when the Michael Jordan last dance documentary came out during Covid.

There were millions of people learning for the first time who Michael Jordan was. And if you rewind particularly, you know, where I'm from in the us which is very basketball intense kind of area. Like it, it just kind of blows your mind to think how do people not know about Michael Jordan? How did they not know about these things?

But they don't, because time has passed and other things have happened and they're talking about LeBron James and the way that we talked about Jordan. And so something will will spark that curiosity that I just think this is interesting. And you, you mentioned the, um. Practice of drinking in at home alone in your underwear.

That came from a conversation with someone from Finland who, when I, I just realized in talking to her, I didn't know that much about Finland like. I mean, I know of the country obviously, and I know a few things, but I thought, you know, I've never been there even though I've been to other countries around it.

It it's just like people who, you know, people in England who have been to America, but they probably haven't been to, they certainly haven't been to the state where I'm from, or they haven't been to all the states, so they're not going to know everything about everywhere, and those are opportunities to learn.

And so she told me about this custom called. I'm glad I can still say the name. I've worked on that one a lot. Um, and it was just, I just thought, I gotta look into this. So sometimes the stories like that one was a, a shorter one, but I actually ended up learning a lot about Finland and the research of that.

And some things will kind of take me, I go in one direction. Go somewhere else. Like I wrote a story about who let the dogs out. The song, um, that I thought was gonna be like a really simple, like, how did the song become popular? Where does the song come from? And actually that story turned into being a huge lesson about copyright and the legal protection of music and how the industry works.

And if you have money, you might be able to afford to, to stand up for your copyright and stand up for your material. But if you don't, you might get lost. And how do other people get it? I mean, that is one of those stories that it started here and it went there. Like it's just. You think it's gonna be a light, fun kind of story, and you're like, actually this is really interesting.

Like this is something that you could talk about in law school. This is something you could talk about when it comes to creativity and inspiration. This is something where we can talk about the ethics of business when inspiration hits me, like I think about some things I might want to talk about, but then it could be as simple as playing a board game with my kids and going.

Where, where do they come up with this idea? Like inspiration's everywhere. You just have to, to look around and, and see, see where it'll take you. 

Roger: At the heart of curiosity being the, the ability to ask not only interesting questions, but you know the right. Good questions. So what do you think makes for a good question?

Beth: Ooh, that, that's an interesting question. What makes a good question? I think being open-ended can be an important thing when asking questions. Like, you know, if you ask something that makes someone kind of think a little bit deeper, like, so if I asked you. What's your favorite book you read when you were a child?

I'm asking what's your favorite book you read when you're a child? Oh, 

Roger: I, I, um, I would not remember the title of the book, but it was one of those choose your own Adventure. 

Beth: Okay. And what did, and what did you, what'd you like about it? 

Roger: Well, not only there is the idea that, okay, I, I get to be more involved in the story because I get to choose, but there is also a desire to like, okay, let's un let's unpack this and, and deconstruct it to understand the formula that allows me to choose to go from page 63 to page 1 72 to page 125 by choosing that, but still.

Okay. If I chose, made a different choice, how would I run through that path as well? So I was, I was interesting about, what was interesting to me was the construction of the, the book, as well as the ability to like, okay, no, I don't have to listen to someone else's story. I get to be more in the story.

Beth: Interesting. And see that's kind of telling as well. 'cause you're telling me a bit about you that you wanted to have that kind of, I guess the, the opportunity to explore and to try different paths. Like I've just picked up something about you from that answer, I think versus if I said, did you like to read the Hardy Boys?

You might say yes or no. And if you say no, then that kind of. I, I, I mean, it's thinking of the thought, well, what did you like to read? Like, did you like mysteries or did you like, um, comics? Or did you like, you know, and you, you might get someone who said, well, I didn't read, I didn't like to read. Okay. Did you like, what kind of music did you like?

You know, what kind, like, just something that is a little bit open. And I think the trick too is, is listening for where can, you know, what are, what are you saying to me that I can then pick up and go, okay, well here's a follow up question to that versus. These are the three questions I'm gonna ask you.

I'm just gonna go down the list, like if I, if I ended something and say, you know, yeah, I like choose your own adventure. They were, there's a really, they were really emotional for me and I went, okay, and what was your favorite sport when you were eight? You know, it's like, oh, you know, you could kind of leave someone hanging of like, I thought we were gonna explore this a bit.

Just an open-ended question. The framing of it just invites a little bit more thinking maybe, and, and encourages people then to. To, to ask a question if they, if there's something they wanna know more about. Often I find Roger that the stories or the little anecdotes that can come out that get sparked by something, those may be where the real gems are.

Um, I was researching imposter syndrome. Because I think it's a garbage concept that holds people back. That was kind of my hypothesis going into it. And when I, when I bought the original research paper and read it, I saw that the research was done in the Midwest United States at the time that my mother and her sister would've been in in college.

And so I thought, I'm gonna ask them like, what was it like to be a smart woman? In those environments at that time, and it was interesting because my mom shared this anecdote with me about a, a man who had a column syndicated in national newspapers around national, you know, newspaper across the United States called the Worry Clinic, and he was giving advice five times a week.

A lot of it relationship advice to women. It was very reflective of the time and the attitudes of that time that if we saw to, you know, when I saw them today, 'cause I actually went, went to newspaper archives to find them. You know, it was just very eyeopening to think about what, you know, young, young people or not even young people, people at that time.

We're being told about women and the role of women. And one of his things was, uh, if a woman was struggling in her relationship, you know, if your husband's not paying you enough attention or if he's, if he's having an affair, that it is your fault as the, the wife. Um, and his, his line was about, uh, the quantity and quality of boudoir cheesecake you are serving.

So if your husband strays. It is your fault because you're either not serving enough or a high enough quality of what he called boudoir cheesecake. And he used that obviously to mean sex, but it was a G-rated way of saying sex at the time. But reading these columns, I thought, wow, what insight I have to what it must have been like to be a a, a smart young woman at that time who then might have been.

Feeding into the research to this idea of being an imposter and not belonging in, in certain environments because these are the messages you're getting. Like if, if you can't get a man, it's your fault. If, if he leaves you, it's your fault. There are women coming after your, your man at all times. So beware of he called him the sirens.

The sirens are all around. Um, and I mean, he had things. If you've gained weight since your wedding day, basically you need to not eat. I mean, he had a whole diet it. I mean, it was very eyeopening. That's what I will say. And that would never, I would never have asked my mom. Tell me about a, a newspaper column at the time that might have influenced views of society, you know, but it was something that just came out organically in the conversation that then that set off my curiosity, and of course I had to research and write about that as well.

So 

Roger: it reminds me of this whole idea of me search. It sounds like he was talking a lot about his own issues than anyone else's, but he, 

Beth: he had some gems, I'll tell you about how to be, how to rate a, a husband or rate a wife. And there were things that you gave points or demerits for from like, you know, um, wearing red nail polish as a woman was a demerit.

You know, like all these, I mean, it was just, it's just a snapshot in time. You know, when you think, I'm sure there would've been people at the time that would've rolled their eyes at this, but then. Also, there would've been a lot of people nodding along and thinking, this is, this is right. This is what you should be expecting, or this is what you should be doing, or this is how you contribute as a woman or a man in a relationship.

It's just giving you insight and I find that really, really interesting because if we have insight to maybe people's situations, we can have a little bit more empathy. To who they are, you know, or, or why they are the way they are. 

Roger: When we talk about imposter syndrome, you know, this columnist from 50 or so years ago that might've had an impact on things, on people and their opinions and that they shared with other people.

And today, you know, whether there's, there's a lot of people questioning imposter syndrome, um, and interesting how it might have, its. Route back to that column. 

Beth: Uh, and this is what I think gets left out in a lot of things I've seen about imposter syndrome today, Roger, is that people don't talk about like when did that research take place and who was being researched?

Who were you talking to? You were talking to women. Mostly PhD, you know, people who were in high levels in academia, in the Midwest, United States at a period of time. That women weren't doing those things. So if you said, you know, oh, I think I might wanna be a professor, um, well, if you were a woman back then, there would've been plenty of people to say to you like, that's not what you should do, or you don't belong here.

So then if that woman says, I don't feel like I belong here. Well, is that surprising? Like if someone tells you you don't belong, then you're probably that some of that is going to seep in. Um, but I don't think, and, and it was never seen as a syndrome. It was called a phenomenon, which of course gets left out.

And I think this whole idea about the, the imposter thing really bothers me. And we're, I'm going on a tangent. Sorry. Um, is, is that an imposter is someone who is, is doing, there's, there's something negative in that. It's not like. Um, an innocent thing. Like it's, there's something I'm trying to deceive you.

You know, if I say I'm a doctor and you know, I can perform surgery on you, and I've never studied medicine, like I'm faking it in a way that is dangerous. I'm may, I'm doing it for some fraudulent gain, you know, for whatever. It's, and people who talk about having imposter syndrome, it's often someone who's stepping up into a bigger role.

Like you've been a marketing manager and now you've been promoted to a senior marketing manager. Well, you have marketing skills, so. You are not faking it. You're not lying about your knowledge or your skills, your qualifications. You're just moving up into a role that perhaps, you know, you're going through a period of growth, period of change.

There are gonna be things you don't know yet because you're taking a step up, but you're not faking it. It's not like you're saying you're a doctor one day and the next day you're like, oh, I think I'll go be a judge in a courtroom. I mean, the. And that's what bugs me about it is that people put this label and then they say they have a syndrome, which makes it seem like, oh, so sounds so medical and serious and like I have a syndrome.

And people I wish they would just like be a little curious instead of putting these things on people and assigning them to go. Well, where does that come from? What does that actually mean? Who came up with it? Like, can I trust? Can I trust that person? I find a lot of the things I learned in college, I now look at with like a very raised eyebrow of all these things that were kind of taught to us at the time of like, this is the way it is.

And then you go, huh, let's actually dig into that psychologist. Let's actually dig into that research. Oh. What were they doing that wouldn't, that wouldn't pass muster today? Like that's not how you conduct a, a, a robust experiment. But people, those details get lost. 

Roger: This I think is a very important conversation and I'm, because you had the curiosity to look into imposter syndrome, I think it's super.

Important, um, to, to, to be able to share this because a lot of people will feel it. I know, um, after 18 years of consulting, I heard a lot of people talk about fake it till you make it. And I hated that because there is a deceitful quality to that statement. But I always. Instead would think of believe it until you be it.

Mm-hmm. Because every consulting engagement is putting me into a position where I'm gonna learn something. There's something I don't know the answer to. And if I could, you know, if I fake it, I'll be known as a fraud. But if I go into it with curiosity, with asking questions, with the humility of, you know, that I might not have all the answers, that helped me.

Be a better, um, consultant, bring more value to my clients because if I believed that I will be able to add value, I would show up differently mm-hmm. Than if I did what everyone else said, you know, to fake it. Yeah. And I think that's, it's a mindset shift and maybe yes, maybe a, a small one. But it was huge for me.

Beth: Mm. And and that's the thing, just like what you've touched on. If you're telling yourself like, I believe I can do something, versus I'm, I, I'm suffering. It's always that verb suffering. I'm suffering from imposter syndrome and like I just can't do it. 'cause I have imposter syndrome, I have, I've met many people who said they have imposter syndrome and suffer from it.

I have never met someone who has been diagnosed by a professional that they have imposter syndrome. Like, so when someone says I have it, I'm like, well, how do you know? Like says who? Like, just again, curious. Like why? Why do you think you have? Oh, well, 'cause I don't feel like I know what I'm doing. Okay.

Well what do you know? You know, like you're in a new org, you're in a new organization, you're in a new job, you're in a new industry, whatever it is. Like it's gonna take you time to learn how to do that. It's like looking at what do you have, what, and if you have that, as you say, that mindset, if you have that growth mindset, I can learn.

I don't know it, but I can learn it. I believe in my ability to learn. I believe in my ability to ask questions to. To, you know, be persistent. Like, those are all valuable things. Like we're all, we all know more today than we knew 10 years ago, I hope. Um, so it's looking back at the evidence of like, well, I've, I've done hard things before, so why, why can't I do it now?

Roger: To be curious is not only, I would think not only an innate interest in, you know, why things are, but also a belief in or a sense of agency around. I not only have the right, but I have the ability to go find out why. And it's my, you know, it's, I'm perfectly in my within reason to go find out. Why do you, how do you, how do you respond to that?

Beth: Uh, there's definitely a lot that goes into mindset of like, I can't it. And what you're telling yourself, it's the messages you tell yourself. If you say, I can't do this, I don't know how to do this. Nobody likes me, I'm gonna fail. Those aren't great messages to tell yourself. And so I'll say like, well, what would you tell your best friend in this situation?

Like, how would you talk to that person that you care about and love? Well, you know, you may not, and, and maybe some of the people are awful may, they probably don't all hate you, but like sometimes I think that's one of the things that gets left out of imposter syndrome is, is talking about the culture you're in.

Like I've been in plenty of rooms where people don't look like me and they don't sound like me. And they maybe don't think like I do. Um, but that's, those are opportunities for me to add value because, you know, when I'm sitting around a table, let's say with a group of, of men who are older than I am and they're making decisions about their HR policies, including things around maternity, and none of them have ever, never had a, they've never had a baby, they've never been on maternity leave.

They don't know what it's like physically to be pregnant. They don't know any of that. Um. Hey, I might have some views that would be useful here. You know, similarly, I would look for people from different parts of, you know, with different lived experiences to tell me, it's not like, well, oh, I read a book about this, so I, you know, or I went to a conference.

It's like, Hey, if you've got firsthand knowledge about that. Why do let, let's hear it, let's, let's share it. Let's learn kind of from others. But that's, that's where you gotta have the, the mindset, I think, to be open to what you don't know and to learn, to just be open to learning. 

Roger: So what or who inspired you to have this superpower of curiosity?

Beth: To be honest, I think it comes from growing up in a small town in Indiana. My parents were really good at, at helping me kind of grow that curiosity about the rest of the world. I think in particular, if I think about my mother, my mother loves to read and she took me to the library. I can remember summers going to the library and like filling up the station wagon with like.

Because of course there was a competition, Roger, so I wanted to win, um, competitive streak coming out. But, um, so reading a lot of books and getting in those books like you're, you're learning, you know, a book. I, I think reading is so important just to take you into another world and another per another person's perspective, another person's story, just to see what you can, can learn and the creativity and just all, all of that.

Um, I think reading was huge, just being. Curious about, you know, uh, even if I think about in kind of early teen years reading, um, you know, the Outsiders to talk about, you know, what was life like for the greasers and the SOS at this point in time? Again, I don't live in Oklahoma. I never lived in Oklahoma, so I, and I, and at that time period.

So it's just telling you a story about somebody's perspective at that time. Um, role of Thunder. Hear my cry, uh, by Mildred Taylor was a book I loved that. Um. You know, again, telling another story about a family in the South, what it was like to be, uh, I mean the, the messages of racism and inequality and, and things that I wouldn't have been able to, to understand firsthand.

But by reading the story, it just gave me someone else's perspective. So I think reading was a huge thing of just like being curious about how do people, how do people live? What are people's lives like? And then I think my father was really good at helping us. Like he had varied interest. Like I can remember as a child, you know, he was very musical and he's, um, you know, taking me to the theater and kind of opening my eyes to, to those things, even if it was, you know, classical music that I didn't wanna listen to.

There was still that kind of understanding of different, different things that were out there and, you know, getting to travel and see other places in the world to see. I can remember just, you know, the topography changes. Like if you grow up in one place in America, you might not realize. How vast our country is.

Like I've said to people, if they say, oh, Americans don't travel enough, and first they're not curious enough to know, well, we don't have the same vacation that other parts of the world do, number one. Um, and number two, there is so much like if you actually get in your car and drive, you can, you could explore so much in the United States and you know, from mountains.

You know, in Colorado, and then you're in the Red Rocks and you know, the Grand Canyon and you come along the Pacific, you know, coming up to your turf, you know, the beautiful oceans and you know, redwood forests and all of this. Like, I come from a place where the land is flat. You know, we have no. Uh, no ocean there and, you know, lake Michigan at the, the top of the, the state.

But you know, when you don't grow up with those things and you got start to see them, you're like, oh, wow, this is really interesting just seeing these different things. It just made me really curious about the rest of the world, like what else was out there? What, and, and it's fine. Like there are places I've been that I think I don't want, I, I would never wanna live here or I'm glad I don't live here.

But e but I can always take away something that I'm like, but I, but I like this, about that play. I can remember hearing, you know, about, oh, in Spain they take a siesta, you know, uh, like as if it was a negative thing. You know, they're not working hard enough. And then, you know, you go to Spain and you're like, huh, I can kind of see the benefits of this.

You know, these people are having a meal with maybe their family and they're, you know, enjoying it and they're spending time together and. It's again, it's like you can see these things and go, I, oh, I see why you do this, and, and kind of framing it within that context of it's not wrong, it's just different.

And I think that's important when you're traveling a lot, is to just think it's not wrong, it's just different. Unless we are talking about washing machines in the uk and those are wrong. The, the United States ones are, are superior. That's a hill I'll die on. That's it's different, but it's wrong. Like it should not take this long to do laundry.

Roger. Okay. To tell you, America's figured it out and I wish they would tell, share their secrets with every, like, manufacturer of washing machines and dryers around the world. 

Roger: Yeah, that's important. Public service announcement for, for everyone in the uk There are, there's, there is a better option. But what, what strikes me about that response is that you come to a fork in the road where you're presented with new information and, uh, I'm, I'm, I.

I'm either channeling Walt Whitman or Ted Lasso and it could be the same around, you know, don't be judgmental, be curious. 

Beth: Yeah. Well, Walt Whitman didn't actually say that quote. Just, uh, that little ick with the writer Ted Lasso, you know, I'm like, I know it sounds good to say it was Whitman, but I don't think he did.

It's funny you say so. 

Roger: Let go on. Well, I know your, your, your article that came out today was about attributing quotes to the wrong people. And I, I, I want to tell you the story of, I was quoting, I, I thought I was quoting Albert Einstein with the Einstein definition of insanity, of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, and then finding out, oh, that's also been attributed to Mark Twain and to Ben Franklin.

And so I was, I was given a presentation and I actually put up all three pictures of these. Old white men with balding and, and long flowing hair, doesn't look anything like me. But anyway, like these three guides and it's like, hey, we all know the definition of insanity and yet we keep attributing it to one of the three people, but we might, you know, it's wrong.

It's, it was kind of meta in that way. Um. Yeah. What did you learn about the research? I haven't had the chance to read your article 'cause Well, it just came out and I was little busy. It, it's early for you. It's early 

Beth: for you. Yeah. Well it, it's, it's this funny thing about like, sometimes you hear these quotes and like, you really like them.

You know, like, I, I, I like that Henry for, you know, the thing that, oh, Henry Ford said if I'd ask people what they wanted, they would've said faster horses. Like, sounds really good, right. And it's a, it's great to use when you're talking about, you know, innovation and customer experience and, you know, research and blah, blah, blah.

Um, but Henry Ford didn't say it. And I contacted the Henry Ford Museum because I, I heard it said in some event I was at and I was like. I wonder if he really said, you know, like, where did, there are certain things that we can look back and we can go, right. I know when that was said because you know, I, I heard it myself in the room or I saw something, you know, but, but there are a lot of these other things that just kind of become stories of, you know, like JFK going around NASA and there's someone sweeping the floor and JFK says, what are you doing?

And he says, well, I'm helping us get a man on the moon. You know, it's a nice story. We're all contributing. We all have a purpose, you know, the greater purpose. Not true, you know, like, you know, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. But, um, there are, and so this, this one I shared today, it was about.

There's first the Henry Ford, but then there's also a quote that often gets attributed to Maya Angelou about, people will forget what you said, and people may forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. And it's a really lovely anecdote. 

Roger: Don't say it. Don't say it. She didn't say it.

Beth: She didn't say it. Um, and it's attributed actually to somebody from, um, the Mormon church from the seventies. But what's really, what's really interesting about this, this one with Maya Angelou, because she did say so many great things. So there's plenty of, we've got plenty of material from her that we can use if we want, you know, an, an inspirational quote.

Um, but what's interesting is there was a little book that came out in the eighties called Life's Little Instruction Book, and it had these little, little quotes, kind of, you know, chicken Soup for the Soul, sort of, you know, like these nice little pieces that you wouldn't, you wouldn't disagree with, but they.

Maybe coming from a certain person, you know, if I could hear it in James Earl Jones' voice, it suddenly sounds profound. You know, like, yes, a journey does of a thousand miles does begin with a single step. Thank you. Darth Vader. Um, and so because Ma Angelou is one that, you know her, she's got such stature and, you know, such reputation.

There are agencies that represent people like that. So, you know, like your Einstein and. Um, you know, other estates of, of people who are famous that maybe you wanna put their picture, their, their name or name, image and likeness, and you have to pay them, you know, so if I wanna put a quote from Gandhi, you know, someone represents the family and I have to pay some amount of money, and I found the people who.

Represent Dr. Angelou. And so I contacted them to say, can you tell me when she said this? Like, was it, I, I can't find a, a journal, I can't find an essay. I can't find a book, I can't find a speech. I, I cannot find this anywhere. Like, but surely like you would be the ones to know. And they could not. But what they told me was that I needed to pay if I wanted to use it.

Um, and when I kind of went back with like, but if you can't tell me that she said this, like surely you wouldn't charge me money if you can't confirm that she actually said this and. Then our conversation kind of ended at that point. Um, and I found something where, uh, Dr. Martin Luther King, there was a monument to him that was made, that included a quote that had been changed.

And it was Dr. Maya Angelou who had spoken out about it, say, was very angry of like, these are not his words, and you shouldn't be changing his words. So to my mind that says that she care. And I mean, obviously as a writer, I believe she would've cared about words and. For people, like I think we show respect by giving people credit where they deserve it, and also giving them the word, you know, putting words in their mouth that actually came from their mouth.

It's no fun. Roger to find out that these things that you're like, oh, I got this Great Wall Whitman. 'cause when I saw that Ted Lasso episode. First thing I did was like, I wonder if man really said that, you know, it's kind of like the goldfish that forget, I mean, that's not true either. So the writers of Ted Lasso, they do like to have these nice little, you know, anecdotes.

But obviously, you know, the, the fact checking is not as important as the. Aw, shucks, Kansas, quality of, of their hero. Mm-hmm. So yes, that's why, why we have to be curious to look in these things because especially now, if you put in, I mean, you could put in anything that you think, oh, maybe this is a Mark Twain.

Anyone who's like quotable, you know, like an Einstein or a Mark Twain or a Maya Angelou. And you can find these things on the internet where it'll say like, there's their picture and there's the quote, and it looks pretty official. And you can find a lot of search results that will say, you know, here are these quotes by so and so.

And it's, it's in digging more that you might find like, uh, and, and it often, like there was a quote by George Bernard Shaw about communication that I wanted to use in something. And sure enough, you know, it's like, and I even saw on someone's LinkedIn profile recently that they had this, you know, it's like George Bernard Shaw.

You know, it's like, didn't say that. And it's, it's the person who said it is not as, you know, not a name anyone would recognize. But I bought his book and I saw it in there. My favorite thing with, uh, Maya Angelou in particular is there's an interaction that she did with Oprah Winfrey. Where she says, when somebody shows you who they are, believe them.

And it's, uh, it was a, in a TV episode. So I've seen the clip, so I feel confident saying you can use that quote. I mean, it's gonna get harder, Roger, because with ai mm-hmm. I mean. Who knows what genius things we can say, we said first, you know, and put it out there on the internet, be like, no, no. I was, I was the first one.

Say that. What do you mean? No, no. I, I wrote all those famous advertising campaigns. Diamond is forever. Yeah, that was me. I, I did that in, uh, yeah, I'm not, 

Roger: but yeah. Yeah. You have, you have. Touched on every quote I think I've ever used in a, in a LinkedIn post, and you've, you've completely like, you know, have shown the, the holes in my research skills.

And yet, um, the example of the Einstein, or what I thought was Einstein's definition of insanity being attributed to two other gentlemen. Um, I had this experience with AI recently. I was doing a little research, uh, for a presentation I was gonna give, and it, it gave me some research by, um, Amy Edmondson.

Okay. Which I then sh I shared with someone else, um, who was giving, uh, who was reviewing my presentation, and they're like, I don't think Amy Edmondson ever said this. And so then I went onto the, to the Google, um mm-hmm. To find out did she ever say this? And nothing came up. And I went back to chat GPT.

Mm-hmm. And I said, well, you know, tell me where this shows up. And it points the two articles. I go and, you know. Do a, do a, you know, find now sort of a function to find these words and it doesn't show up. So I go back to chat GPT, and I said, is this a halluc hallucination and chat? GPT says yes. It was kinda like, sorry bro.

Um, and it's, and at first I'm like, I'm, I'm like, oh, this is, this is why we can't trust ai. And then I realized, oh, no, no, no. AI is just training. On what? On human content. Yep. And if human content is gonna put out stuff that's not true, why would we expect AI to get it right? 

Beth: Yeah. Um, 

Roger: it also reminds me of one of my, uh, one of my oldest son's friends had a bumper sticker on his car that said, you know, you can't trust what you read on the internet.

Signed Ben Franklin. Yeah. Um, 

Beth: I mean, I, I realize that curiosity can, can feel like a luxury at times because people will say, well, I don't have time to look into that, or, I don't have time to look that up, or I don't have time. You know, so we take, you know, for example, our, our news, you know, our, our news sources.

You go to whatever, you know, trusted news source you like, and. It's telling you the story and you go to another one and it might tell you, tell you a different story. You know, is that the largest crowded has ever been in an inauguration or not? Like It depends. And, and that's what I think is really frightening, Roger.

If you don't live through these things, you go back. Like I found that when I was researching, um, the Kitty Genovese story, which is a woman who was killed in New York, um, gosh, back in the sixties, I think. It's been a while since I wrote this story, so forgive me if I get some of these details wrong, but the, the story at the time was that she was attacked on the street and nobody helped her, and that all these people saw her being attacked and nobody helped her.

But I. That's actually not what happened, you know? And it's, it was very late at night and it wasn't where people thought it was and there were people calling the police, but it was a better story of like New York, this hard city where nobody cares. They just watch people get attacked on the street and you know, and there was a woman who came to her aid, but that was kind of left out.

But if you look at some of the stories even reported in like the New York Times back then, you can see how some of this stuff was misconstrued or it's just a reporter. Who has to sell a, either wants to tell a certain story or is being maybe an editor who is going to tell that a certain version of the story.

And so we really, this is why I feel like media literacy and critical thinking are becoming more and more important because we've gotta ask those questions. Like we've, you know, when somebody puts a joke in Wikipedia. And then it gets taken. It is like, yes, Beth Collier is a three time gold medal winning Li Olympic, you know, whatever.

That might not be true. I mean, if someone wants to say, I am, I, I mean, there are worse things to being accused of, I suppose. 

Roger: So I wanna talk about joy and not because you were just. Killing my joy about all the quotes I've attributed to these great speakers. No, no, no. It's Ignorance is 

Beth: bliss. Roger.

Ignorance is bliss. What can I say? For 

Roger: sure? For sometimes, but now I know I need to, you know, ask, did they not say this in my searches from now on? And I, I, I promise I will. I, but I'm really curious about the relationship between curiosity and joy. What have you found to be true? 

Beth: So what I found to be true is I think curiosity does lead to joy.

I think the ability for us to make connections with people and also to learn new things can be very joyful. And there's, I mean, there's plenty of research of like what happens to the brain when you learn and when you are following your curiosity, you're going to learn something. And when you are connecting with another person.

That is something that can bring you Joy's unique connection. And when you can ask questions and find, you know, something that you share in common or just something that you think that's interesting, I, I didn't know that about you or I didn't know about that, or that thing was, it's fun to learn. And so I think the joy, there's a lot of joy in the discovery for me of going like, oh, I didn't, didn't know about that.

I mean, some of the, if I would like all of my curious mind stories to be like happy and light, and that's kind of how I started it. Unfortunately that is not the reality of the world. And sometimes, um, stories don't have happy endings. And at first, when I found some of these stories, particularly about women and things that were from, you know, a hundred years ago, it wasn't really surprising that, you know, women's accomplishments were overlooked or someone stole credit or that kind of thing.

But then there are stories about men that that happened to as well. I wrote a story about the Ferris wheel, which I thought would be. Pretty innocent kind of, Hey, where did the Ferris wheel come from? Oh, it was a guy named Ferris. Okay, let's tell this story. And then, you know, it goes from incredible success with the Ferris Wheel at the world's fair, to then not getting the money and people not honoring their agreements and him dying.

And they're no one having the money, like no one coming to claim the body because they're going to have to pay for it. And you think like, this is a really sad story. Like I didn't know. It was gonna go in that direction. Um, but that doesn't mean it's not worth telling. Like if we only tell the stories that make us feel happy at the end, then you know, that's, that's not the, that's not the reality.

I was looking for stories about creativity that showcased. How, um, how creative, creative people think and how creative ideas become innovations and really illustrate that path of failure and rejection. That is part of any creative endeavor that I think gets left out of a lot of the stories, but not every story is gonna have a happy ending.

But just learning from, from people's stories is, to me, it's just interesting. Or as I joke to some people like, well, maybe this will help you. Win a quiz contest at some point. Some of 'em will ask this question and you'll, you'll know about Mc Hammer because you read my newsletter that week. 

Roger: Right. Or George Bernard Shaw did not say, oh, George.

I mean, you know, some 

Beth: of it'll be quite highbrow. Like, I mean, there are, I don't know how many people will, will take their inspiration from like Winston Churchill one day and Taylor Swift the next, you know? But that's, that's how I, that's how I roll. 

Roger: I love that. And as you were giving that response, I was thinking about, you know, curiosity feels like these, you know, learning new things would be sparking joy left and right, but then when you find out, like the truth isn't always, you know, uh, rainbows and, and puppies.

Beth: Yeah. 

Roger: Well that's life and yeah. If, if everything was golden. Um, then our reality would tell us, oh, like, that's not my experience. What am I doing wrong? Mm. And if it, if the truth is no, there are obstacles, there are failures. You will miss more shots than you make, or, you know, whatever quote we wanna attribute to Ben Franklin Gretsky.

Was it 

Beth: Michael Jordan? Which athlete said that? Yeah, 

Roger: none of the above. Let's go. You'll see, you'll 

Beth: see, you'll see it attributed to all kinds of athletes. But 

Roger: for sure, for sure. Um, or maybe like Charles Bukowski, right? Yeah. 

Beth: Or Michael Scott from the office. I think he had Michael Scott be a waki. 

Roger: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

Um, but, um, oh, where was I go the joy in this conversation, but you know, if reality has bumps, if reality has turbulence and failures and, you know, warts and all, and yet. We look to our heroes and see like, oh, they didn't have those. Mm-hmm. Like, okay, what's wrong with me? I, I think that, I think we're setting ourselves up for more failure.

Not only from our own experiences, but the mindset in which we go into it. So I really appreciate this idea of like, curiosity. Sure, there's joy, but at times, you know, when we find out the truth, it ain't, it ain't pretty. And that, that I think, sets us up for a better mindset for approaching the work that we do.

Beth: Yeah. And to, to know that like some things haven't changed. You know, that there, there's nothing new under the sun in some cases that you think. Idea. You know, people take credit for other people's work ideas get stolen. The the good person may not get the lion's share of the profits from some, like, these things have been happening for a long time.

And maybe just in knowing those stories, you know, it gives us some kind of insight or, um, maybe makes people feel less alone to know that actually this is, this is reality. Sometimes the world isn't, isn't all sunshine and roses and. What can I, what can I learn from this? 

Roger: So what's next for you and your superpower of curiosity?

Beth: Oh, good question. Well, I like to find things that someone might say, I've, I've never heard of that person, or I've never thought of who might be behind that idea or item or product, whatever it is. So I'll probably do that and then. I know we're also coming up to March Madness with basketball, so there may be a basketball story.

We'll see. Um, I've, I've already looked into the origin of March Madness, so I've got that one. Uh, 

Roger: so Beth, are you ready for the lightning round? 

Beth: Oh, okay. I hope so. We'll find out. 

Roger: Yeah, I'm sure you'll, I'm sure that that competitive spirit will come out and you'll, you'll be on 

Beth: top. 

Roger: So fill in the blank.

Curiosity is 

Beth: essential. 

Roger: Who in your life provides curiosity for you? 

Beth: No, I mean, it's can be ran random people I meet sometimes just conversations. If somebody says something like I, I never know who's going to. Say something that might set my curiosity off. You've, you've gotta be deliberate. I think about it if you, if you wanna be curious because that's something, Roger, I used to think, um, in terms of like things you got wrong about curiosity, I just thought it was kind of like having blue eyes, like it was no big deal.

Like it's just. Just a trait you have, but actually I now see it as a really valuable trait because not everyone is this way. Not everyone asks questions about things or thinks about things in certain ways They not. Everyone's like that, so it could be a point of difference. And a point where you can add value.

Roger: What is one thing that gets in your way of curiosity? 

Beth: Probably time. It does take time to, to, and, and it takes effort. 

Roger: If an audience member wanted to ask you a question or follow you, where would you point them to? 

Beth: So I put them to LinkedIn. I share a lot of information on on LinkedIn for starters, and then I would also point them to my Substack Curious Minds, which is.

Beth collier.substack.com where I, I share a story every week on Fridays, um, of something I'm curious about. 

Roger: Beth, this conversation has been such a pleasure. I have really enjoyed this exploration into the curious mind of Beth Collier, and it has been such, it has been a wellspring of joy. It has been inspirational, and not only for me being more curious, but also.

For me, better fact checking the quotes that I put out there. Uh, and I really appreciate you taking the time to share your superpower with us. Thank you very much, Beth. 

Beth: Thank you, Roger. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. And I, I was just gonna ask you one final question, which is, um, yeah. Did you enjoy this conversation or would you rather have been mud wrestling?

And for, for listeners that might not know, that is me doing a callback. Um, I didn't mention this to Roger before, but I listened to an episode that he did where he interviewed his mother and, um, what insight it gave me to who Roger is as a person since Roger and I have met, not met in real life, in person.

Um, but all of the lovely traits that Roger shows coming through these conversations, I could draw a nice little line there to his mother who just sounds like the most lovely person. And she had a bumper sticker on her car that's said I'd rather be mud wrestling, which I thought was also a little insightful gem to your mother and her sense of humor and how fun I thought she probably was to grow up with.

Oh, 

Roger: so much fun. And you know, I have to admit, I've never been mud wrestling, so I can't actually honestly answer the question, but I would gotta, I gotta say this conversation is, is probably, uh, again, I'm making an assumption, but much better than mud wrestling. 'cause mud wrestling's one of those ideas where it sounds fun, but I would imagine like a week later when you're still flaking off mud from various crevices of your body, it's like, uh, that was a bad idea.

Um. Whereas in a couple weeks from now, I will be experiencing the joy from this conversation with no sticky residue. So I'm gonna say this conversation, 

Beth: you're not gonna feel dirty and need a shower right away. So that's, that's a plus. That's a plus. I think your mom's bump, the bumper sticker is more fun with the mud wrestling.

I'll, I'll give you that, you know, but, uh mm-hmm. I'd rather be following my curiosity. Maybe doesn't have the same feel on a bumper sticker, but, um, but it's a good thing to do. 

Roger: Not messy. Thank you for that because as soon as you said that, I'm picturing the back of her little sica with that bumper sticker and just how much fun it was.

'cause my, my brother learned how to drive in that car and so like the, you know, mid seventies and the, the, mm-hmm. Oh, I'm sorry. It would be early eighties. Um, we would've been driving around the Bay Area and my brother learning how to drive with my mom in the passenger seat, and me in the backseat sort of tucked away and like hard to see me, but I would be looking out and watching people drive by looking, looking as like, who's driving this car?

Um, and that, that was a, uh, little gift of joy you just gave me for that moment. So thank you. 

Beth: Oh, well I love the chat with you and your mother, so, um, yeah, she just. She sounds like such a fun lady, so 

Roger: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you, Beth. 

Beth: Thank you, Roger.

Roger: Thank you all for being here in this conversation with us, and thank you, Beth, for giving us a glimpse into your deeply curious mind and ensuring that we fact checked. Every quote that we were about to put on a slide from now on, the question I'm asking myself after this conversation is, where can I be more curious about the truth and maybe less curious about how I can prove myself right?

I. What do you know to be true is a Three Blue Pens production. And I'm your host, Roger Kassner. We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people. To discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you may be on. Go to native lands.ca. Okay. Be well my friends and love you mean it.

Welcome to the, what do you know to be True pro. So it's beth collier.substack.com and not ben franklin.co. Anyway, 

Beth: yes. Although we often get confused with each other, but um, I do not have the same number of illegitimate children that Ben Franklin has. How. 

Roger: Curious minds wanna know. I know like 

Beth: that was definitely not in the history books.

What severance might have been a better answer. Now that I say that. I'm like, oh yeah, severance. You could definitely be curious about that. A lot of curiosity and severance. Sorry, 

Roger: there's no. Your Audi uses the Oxford comma. Yeah. Um, so what is one thing that you're 

Beth: Audi misquotes famous people all the time.

Roger: Your, your Audi does better research on quotes. How about that? What?