Job Seekers: Crafting Resumes and Career Narratives with Keelan Hawkins

[00:00:00] I think it's one of those things where so many people never ask them why. You know, and so they never really realize the heart of what it is that they're looking for in a career or in a particular position.

[00:00:13] And it's always very fun to see people kind of come to realize why it is they do what they do and the different ways they want to excel. Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the What Do You Know To Be True podcast.

[00:00:32] In these conversations I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill. They're superhero power and the meaningful impact it has on others. The goal is not to try to emulate or hack our way to a new talent.

[00:00:46] Instead, I'm interested in what inspired our guests to develop their talent. How they think about their superhero power and the impact it has on others. The intention is to learn more about their experience with their superhero power and in doing so.

[00:01:02] Maybe we can learn something about the special talent in each of us that makes us unique. Writing a resume is hard for most people. Whether it's challenging to think about what specifically we've done or identify the impact or contribution we've made,

[00:01:19] there's usually a frothy mix of doubt, ego, imposter syndrome that gets in the way. And okay, I'll say it for most people the process sucks.

[00:01:31] What starts out as an intention for a tight two-page resume suddenly balloons into a five-page list of achievements starting with that adaboy award you received in your first job back in high school.

[00:01:44] Sure, it's not relevant to the job you want now but darn it. My work was honored and recognized. Okay, maybe that might be a little too biographical. It's daunting to try to capture your experience and capabilities in a way that will get noticed amongst the hundreds.

[00:02:00] If not thousands of resumes flooding the inboxes of hiring managers and recruiters for someone who writes resumes professionally, that person would have to be part creative writer, part instructor, part coach, part magician, part Buddhist monk, you know,

[00:02:19] Buddha say that life is suffering and I'm sure the last time you wrote your resume, it was a clear example of suffering. I don't know yet if our guest, Kielan Hawkins, practice as Buddhism or does magic tricks.

[00:02:33] But one of the things that Kielan does do is help people rewrite their resumes and coach them to craft the creative narrative. And based on my experience of writing my own resume, anyone that can make that process better who can help us craft a better story

[00:02:52] and a better resume that gets calls from recruiters, that is undoubtedly a superhero power with a meaningful impact on others. Kielan not only can help, she brings a thoughtful process and approach to that task that invites the individual to explore their purpose and their impact

[00:03:13] to be vulnerable in understanding what is meaningful for the individual. It is from that understanding that a relevant and differentiated story can begin to be told. Kielan has two masters degrees, one creative writing and poetry from bowl ingrained state,

[00:03:31] the other masters is in rhetoric and composition from Appalachian state, and it's not hard to imagine how poetry and rhetoric would be helpful in writing a resume and crafting a career narrative.

[00:03:44] She is also a coach and instructor, a writer, and in this conversation we get to hear how this background of seemingly separate journeys. Weaves together to create an amazingly strong and resilient tapestry that is used to empower and inform the work.

[00:04:01] Kielan and I just met recently when she was helping me rewrite my resume while I thought my resume was pretty good before, I can confidently say, much better now. Also, I think my story that I tell about my career, about my vocation is stronger now as well.

[00:04:20] And what struck me about the process she uses was that she engaged me in a series of questions that were an invitation to go deeper than the, what do you do for company x?

[00:04:33] What did you do for company y? What she did over those 60 minutes was tactical, surgical, empathic and news joyful.

[00:04:42] Kielan superpowers not only in making the process easier, which she does is empower people to be better equipped to tell a more clear, more relevant career narrative and having a better resume that gets attention.

[00:04:56] I'm excited to have this conversation with Kielan. She has a super hero power that most of us can benefit from and I'm curious to learn more about her process and how she thinks about crafting career narratives if you're ready let's dive in.

[00:05:13] Good morning, Kielan welcome to the podcast morning. Thank you for having me.

[00:05:22] Oh, it's it's my pleasure. I'm really excited to have you here because I think you do something that is valuable to so many people and helping them not only rewrite their resumes, but really craft a career narrative and in fact,

[00:05:40] I know it's helpful for other people because it was helpful for me when we first met a couple months ago, you helped me come up with a not only a new resume, but also a career narrative that, you know, was productive in my, in my job search.

[00:05:59] And I don't know if I shared this with you, but going into our first session.

[00:06:04] I want to say I was skeptical, but I over the years as I've shared my resume with coaches and with recruiters, I've received a lot of positive comments and not a lot of feedback of things to update.

[00:06:22] I've also helped friends write their resumes and I've always thought, okay, I'm pretty good at this. I know how to write a resume. I know how to help other people.

[00:06:32] And so I wasn't I won't say it was totally close minded fixed mindset on it, but it was a little bit of like okay, Kielan, show me what you got.

[00:06:41] And then we go into the session and I expected a certain you know, certain amount of questions I expected sort of a hard to good resume can't really help you out here that much.

[00:06:53] And instead you walked me through what ultimately felt like like a coaching session you were asking me questions that made me think and not just for spawned I wasn't just telling you okay, I won this award or I, you know,

[00:07:10] I'm not just going to achieve this, but really thought about okay what what are the things you're most proud of and what are the things that you are wanting to shape in the next experience what are those things that sparked joy.

[00:07:22] And so it was, but through the questions that you were asking me, but you know got me into a different mindset and got me really excited to learn more about what you know about what you do.

[00:07:38] And so I'm just a structured approach you have a format you obviously have thought about this and you care about this process and the impact it has on others so.

[00:07:50] And what she did for me and knowing that you do this for a lot of other people and you know it's it's when people are looking for jobs when people are trying to and not only trying but probably struggling.

[00:08:05] To come up not only right the resume but to come up with a new career narrative to be able to talk about what they do and what their passion about how that translates into an actual job and get them that job.

[00:08:16] That is a life changing moment and you're helping to enable and empower that and so in my in the background as we're having our session I'm thinking. Who.

[00:08:28] Helin has a superhero power that I want to learn more about which is perfect for the podcast so I was so so appreciative when you agreed to be here and beyond the pod so thank you so much for the work that you did with me.

[00:08:44] The work that you do with other people and for being willing to share with us a little bit more but that's like. It's weird to say that I'm passionate about resume is a typical writing and you know cover letters and LinkedIn bios but.

[00:09:01] I am I like it and more than that I like. How it's a way that you know someone who just went in got an English degree can still feel like you're serving other people and helping them through such a. Difficult stressful transition period it's it's really fun.

[00:09:21] I think because I get the opportunity to honestly surprise people from what they would expect and kind of pull them out of their own heads a little bit and get them to stop like worrying and almost obsessing about.

[00:09:36] This whole thought of where's my next job going to be what am I going to do pull them out of that and really just help them focus on the fact that like.

[00:09:43] No you don't a lot already like you're a worthy person and if you can showcase that then the job will come.

[00:09:53] That's a lot more than just taking words and putting it on paper and this is why I'm so glad we're having this conversation because it's it's that process I mean you're going into it.

[00:10:04] Empathetic you're going into it thinking about what the other person is going through and you know the anxiety the stress the you know that the concern.

[00:10:15] And taking them out of that to be able to get closer to their better self which is exactly where they need to be when they're actually telling their career narrative when they're writing the resume when they're talking to a hiring manager when they're thinking about what's that next thing they want to do that.

[00:10:32] You know we we spend a lot of time at work. We should absolutely be doing something that we're that connects to our purpose or passion and something that we love. Agreed.

[00:10:45] So and it you know I think I think most people are very familiar with rewriting a resume and the struggle that that is.

[00:10:53] But we're talking about also crafting a career narrative and I was hoping you could help us understand what do you mean when you say crafting a career narrative what is what is that. Was that look like and what does that mean for people.

[00:11:07] If I could tell people just one one thing change the cultural conversation about it in one way I would say like it's not just a boring statement of this is where I was this is the work that I did.

[00:11:21] And really kind of shift the focus and to let people know that it's not just where have you been what have you done but it's you know how did you specifically approach the tasks that were asked of you like what.

[00:11:39] What did you bring to the table that only you can because a hundred people can have the same job same title same company and there will be a hundred unique ways to approach the roles and responsibilities of that same position.

[00:11:58] So you know do you bring integrity to you bring honesty do you bring empathy you know what is that. Core characteristic of yourself that you bring to this job because a job is just a job, you know. But it's the way that you act in that job the.

[00:12:22] Can natural characteristics you have when they shine through like that's what makes it a career that's what makes you the right person for that particular job that what's that's what defines your success.

[00:12:35] And a lot of people really I think have a hard time understanding that so that's what I try to to tell people whenever I say like it's not just a resume or crafting a career narrative.

[00:12:48] You're talking about how you specifically with all of your empathy is an all of your knowledge and experiences.

[00:12:57] You're talking about how you walked into these different positions and how you made them into a success like whether it's the company the team you were working for what have you so many people just focus on, you know.

[00:13:14] I made this metric and just like yeah, but how did you do that you know what aspects of yourself did you bring to the to the role to really flesh it out like if you're great at client relationship management.

[00:13:30] Is that because you understand how to bring humor and levity to those roles to those relationships you're building with clients and partners.

[00:13:40] Is it because you have a very clear approach to communicating very difficult technical information and so they like working with you because they always understand what they're going to get.

[00:13:52] You know, it's not just writing a resume it's showcasing your willingness to take your integrity, your character and put it into a role to find success for a team and a company.

[00:14:09] This is this may I'm thinking about assignments and next work around you know the start with why and the power of why the how the what.

[00:14:21] You know, with what being the last thing and the resume to what you just said so many people think of the resume as the what.

[00:14:28] You just talked a lot about the how like how do you approach this work how did you achieve that metric or how do you build relationships and I think that is a lot of what hiring managers actually are looking for you know, you know, achieving the metric yeah you have to do that.

[00:14:46] But how you do it is what differentiates yourself is there anything there. About the why why you do what you do that you want to that you want to explore when you're working with clients.

[00:15:00] That is honestly the first question that I usually ask people which I guess you would know.

[00:15:07] Is like that what is your next dream role and it's so funny the first thing that they'll throw out will be like a number you know for like a salary and I'm like. Okay.

[00:15:23] Let's try again friend of what's like I mean if you did and don't get me wrong if you're just want to show up get your paycheck totally fine at least you know that's your why.

[00:15:35] You know, and honestly even with people who very much are just like oh well I just I just want this position because this is where I should be in my career and I'm like okay so from that response I am getting that your.

[00:15:48] That you're going to be very like punctual very driven like you're going to make these things happen because that's your why you know some people will talk about like.

[00:16:00] Just showing up for the pay tax being a bad thing but I'm like no like that's just as good of a reason as anything.

[00:16:08] And every why can kind of help you start to guess the what later down the road you know or the how that people are kind of achieving these metrics.

[00:16:20] So really asking people there why sometimes it's they want that higher salary which I'm like okay so now we can talk about you know what you bring to the table that makes your experience is worth that salary some people.

[00:16:35] You know there what is like oh I just like you know that connection or there are wise like I just like that connection you know I like.

[00:16:43] Interfacing with people and then it's just like okay cool we kind of know a little bit about what we need to highlight with your materials down the line because we know that that's a collaborative aspect is.

[00:16:57] Kind of what's going to be important really just sitting down and asking yourself why am I doing X thing. Is a great place to start with a career narrative because once you know why you're doing a thing then you can kind of start to see.

[00:17:14] Okay, this is my why that's going to contribute to how I go about accomplishing these goals and what my focus is on whenever I'm in these tasks.

[00:17:24] And then you get to the what so you can actually kind of reverse engineer your resume based on kind of like that information so.

[00:17:34] I like to start with the why it's really funny when people will give you sometimes people will give you like a little bit of a surface level why and then and then you'll just be like okay.

[00:17:45] And then you prompt them a little bit deeper and they're like well actually it's because I like to do X Y and see things or actually you know I am wanting this higher salary but I also do want to be in this.

[00:17:59] I mean like an executive level position or direct a little position because I do like to mentor people and so it's funny how.

[00:18:08] Sometimes when people will give you a certain why and they have it like on lock they're like ready they're like this is my purpose and then you actually ask them to follow up on it and they're like.

[00:18:19] Oh, I actually like doing this other thing too and I like doing this and I don't know it's just so interesting to me that once you encourage people to think a little bit more deeply about. Why it is they are seeking certain career moves or trajectories.

[00:18:41] I think it's one of those things where so many people never ask them why. You know and so they never really realize the heart of what it is they're looking for in a career or in a particular position and it's always very fun to see people kind of.

[00:18:59] Come to realize why it is they do what they do and and the different ways they want to excel. And I can see how tactically it's really helpful for you to understand their why because then you know what needs to be highlighted in all the materials.

[00:19:17] But more importantly, I can see how if you're going to especially for those people who haven't explored their why. Super helpful for them to go through that exploration to think about what's that next level and the next level.

[00:19:32] And also for them to to be able to incorporate that language because you know. I'm going to assume it's not best practice to answer the why question in an interview with.

[00:19:47] You know a salary level or a title it's probably better to show you know the the why and the how of of you know why you do what you do and why it's past something that's passion and why it's going to be something that gets you out of bed in the morning to show up.

[00:20:02] And you know put in the long hours to do the work so I can see on multiple levels how it's beneficial for your your co-cheek for your client.

[00:20:12] To explore the why but also it's helpful for you and crafting helping them craft that narrative as well as producers deliverables. It very much is it's a. One of my clients actually recently helped me realize that. If you have really fully explored your kind of like.

[00:20:37] Why what and how for your resume and really kind of figured out. Basically what drives you to do these types of roles then honestly going from creating your resume to. Asing an interview for the type of position that you're looking for.

[00:20:57] I don't want to say shouldn't be that hard because talking to people is hard anytime someone asks me a direct question. I usually just. Dear in a headlights like oh what are your hobbies. Suddenly I don't know I've never had a hobby before in my life.

[00:21:13] But you should have an idea of how to answer a lot of interview questions if you've really appropriately kind of thought about the robustness of why you are.

[00:21:27] Surging for particular positions, you know one question again that you would know that I like to ask clients is like what. messaging what key themes. Do you want to come across in your resume materials it's a question I got from my team lead Lindsay Waters she's amazing.

[00:21:48] But I love that question because people are always just like what. What. I don't think. What messaging like what key themes it's like I already know what you can do but like.

[00:22:03] You know what character traits do you want to show through your materials and I think those types of questions or the differentiators those differentiating factors that will help you stand out in such a competitive.

[00:22:17] Job market and those like considering those types of questions are also what's going to kind of preemptively prep you for those difficult interview questions as well so I feel like it's all kind of related in a way that we don't really talk about enough.

[00:22:35] Do you find that people are reluctant to to lead with the themes to lead with the wise because that maybe they intuitively know that's what's going to drive the decisions more so than the than the what they've done or the what they've achieved.

[00:22:59] I would yes, I would say so and I would also say that like I think so many people it's. They're reluctant maybe not because they even realize that that is going to be what drives the decision but because they've just never.

[00:23:15] Never been prompted to think that deeply about it or I mean one thing that I see a lot of a lot is that a lot of people don't consider you know the the why and the how because to them.

[00:23:31] What they do is so common place you know they're just like oh well I just do X task like it's not a big deal you know and I'm like.

[00:23:43] Okay, well yeah but like managing a hundred million dollar account for a global billion dollar company might be just another day to you sir.

[00:23:55] But I would cry if someone said that I had to do that you know what I mean and so I think a lot of it is like. Just the unfortunate fact that that so often our daily skills and talents go so under appreciated.

[00:24:14] The people start to think oh well I guess you know if I'm not being recognized for this on a daily basis that must just mean that everyone can do it and it's like.

[00:24:25] No no no most most people that I work with you know I'm just like I would fold like a wet paper towel if I had to do what you do so it is cool it is special like there are.

[00:24:38] These really cool characteristics and methods that you bring to this role but I think so many people just downplay their own achievements and.

[00:24:49] I'm guilty of it too I spend all day everyday talking to people like no you're like talents are super special and unique like no you know like there's this robust narrative here like no you can do this you're doing great and then someone's like what do you do and I'm like hey just right.

[00:25:02] I'm not a big deal I just do the whole make words pretty thing.

[00:25:10] Isn't that interesting how it's it's very easy to flip into the role of the client or the coachy and what you're really what when I'm getting out of this conversation is that you're helping people go into.

[00:25:22] I'm going to do that vulnerable space to be able to explore the why to be able and then maybe it's the first time or maybe it's something they've done multiple times and it's beginning to help me understand. Why I felt so.

[00:25:40] I'm going to let up when we talked because you those questions kind of push me into that you know it's.

[00:25:50] It's vulnerability time and and some of us are kind of vulnerability junkies and love to share this stuff and I would imagine there's not many of us but it's probably why I was pretty excited in the session and you probably you're probably a better judge of that because you get to see when people are.

[00:26:06] When you when you put that invitation out there to be you know explore your why and the be vulnerable some people probably jump right in and some people are like oh I'm not I'm not going to do it.

[00:26:18] People hunger down so hard sometimes you know and they're just like and it's kind of like what I kind of like the joke I made earlier was.

[00:26:27] When I said that I always forget all of my hobbies as soon as someone asks me directly you know I've had some clients I'll be like okay so like you know what what makes you. What helps you stand out and they just like.

[00:26:45] I've never been special in my life and oh my gosh and I'm just like oh no no no this isn't no this isn't the spiral that we're it's like nope you got to talk yourself up and they're just like well but I but.

[00:26:57] So it's I will be the first to admit that is very difficult for a lot of people to do but I would also encourage everyone to give it a try because it is.

[00:27:08] So worthwhile you know like I think so often we look externally to metrics or to you know hearing from colleagues or or. You know superiors at work like our bosses and stuff we look there for this type of validation.

[00:27:29] But it's like no you need to to validate within yourself that you are great at this thing like you wouldn't have all of this knowledge about it you know you wouldn't have done this for.

[00:27:43] One year three years ten years it's like just buy that alone just by the nature of you being so interested in it that you think it's worthwhile to seek out.

[00:27:56] More work in it or more knowledge about it like that makes you worthwhile that makes you an expert of this skill you know this role whatever it is and so it's a you have some people that definitely hunger down and you kind of have to.

[00:28:15] Definitely coach them they're like no you can do this you are doing great you do have these skills I promise so it but it's it's really fun that's.

[00:28:29] I won't say it's fun that's rude I would love it if they had a bit more self a steam about their position but it is also nice sometimes to be able to be the person that's just like hey you got this you know like.

[00:28:45] Wow what a gift that is to give to someone who is you know does is not aware of you know their their purpose they're why you're helping them connect to that meaning but then also to validate.

[00:29:01] That they you know what they do is valuable and who they are. Is valuable that that's got a feel good. Yeah I mean I feel like it's what you're trying to do for people on this podcast too so you know well. Well thank you I.

[00:29:21] I appreciate that and yeah I see some of those those parallels but you're.

[00:29:28] You know I my jobs easier I get to talk to people who are you already exploring but you're actually working with people helping them explore helping them be vulnerable and find that that sense of worth and oh thank you.

[00:29:45] That that's an awesome gift to be able to give so speaking of being inspired. What are who inspired you to help others craft the resumes and craft their career narratives. I have no idea.

[00:30:03] No I am in college I got it in my head that I was going to be a counselor. Even though I.

[00:30:15] It depends it depends on on how much of a bandwidth I have to listen to people talk about their problems it was so funny all my friends and undergrad.

[00:30:26] I because I was getting a dual degree so bachelor of arts and English and then bachelor of sciences and psychology. And the English just because.

[00:30:37] Why not I've just always naturally been good at it but I was just like no I'm going to be a counselor and my friends and undergrad we're always just like are you sure about that. And how our friends know us sometimes better than us.

[00:30:53] It wasn't until like halfway through my senior year that I was just had it was just one day I was like. Yeah they were right. It's like I've come this far so I'm going to get the degree but like they were right.

[00:31:07] But I still always kind of like I like just talking to people you know like I like talking to people and hearing about their.

[00:31:19] And then just like, I'm just like just like I'm just like a kind of just a kind of kind of and a kind of just a kind of just a kind of a kind of inspiration and then also like.

[00:31:34] And then also like I recognize that not everyone can write well a lot of for a lot of people writing is like their biggest beer. I don't know if it's a great one as a career field that I can go into where I get to

[00:31:45] like kind of see how people tick, see how people think. And then also use my ability to write well to kind of like help people possibly do that. I taught in college for a while thinking that maybe that would be the thing to do.

[00:32:04] I'd rather get in composition and that was just kind of my thing and just keep going to grad school until I figure it out. And then finally when I was in my third graduate program, I finally was just like, oh okay, so I love working in writing centers.

[00:32:21] What is the adult version of working in a writing center? And you know, resume writing. It made sense in my head right now that I say it out loud. And like that maybe doesn't track, but yeah, because I think.

[00:32:38] I love in in preparation for this conversation how we were talking about okay, is it writing resumes? Which is really valuable in and of itself based on the how you do it and the why you do it.

[00:32:51] And that's not just, you know, you're not just producing documents of people's, you know, responsibilities and where they've worked in dates and it's not, it's not just the data. It's the process. It's the why they do what they do and it's how you go about doing that process.

[00:33:10] But we came up with this idea around crafting career narratives because that document isn't. The value of that document isn't the document itself. It's the story that it tells and it's the story that the that you help empower those individuals to be able to tell that maybe they.

[00:33:27] Had not even been aware of before the phone call began with you. Yep, yep and it's that's whenever I look back because sometimes I'll be like, oh, I don't. My trajectory seems a bit odd, but when I look back, I entered a graduate program and started teaching.

[00:33:50] And it's, you know, I'm just a year composition to college kids. And I was just like, wow, I love chatting with these students and, and, you know, like bringing ideas to the table and bouncing things off and having discussions. And I was just like absolutely hate grading.

[00:34:06] I never want to grade another paper in my life. If I ever have to it'll be too soon. And so I was like, all right, maybe not that. And then I thought about how I also love working in writing centers.

[00:34:18] The one thing that you learn whenever you start to do any sort of training for working in a writing center full time because that's the next thing I thought I would do.

[00:34:30] Is that you're we always have this motto where it's like you're not addressing the paper, like the paper isn't the point whatever paper student brings into the writing center. The point you're trying to address their. Either capability with writing, but be more importantly, honestly, their relationship to writing.

[00:34:54] Hmm. I would have so many students that came in and they would tell me the most horrific stories about like just these awful experiences that they'd had with English teachers that made them absolutely despise writing.

[00:35:10] You know, and I realize that a lot of them have such a limited view of what writing is in this supposed to mean you know, so I'd always tell people like. It's not writing. It's just communication.

[00:35:25] You writing this paper like don't think of it as writing a paper here just figuring out the way that you communicate best. And I loved having those conversations with students.

[00:35:39] But naturally the way that you have a career in writing centers is you become a writing center director and you don't even get to talk to people about writing, you just have to do all the boring management stuff.

[00:35:51] And I was just like okay, nope, try again, and that's when I luckily was approached by recruiter at Ron Stodden. I was just like. I was just like a career coaching. Perfect.

[00:36:03] The perfect balance getting to help now, you know professionals reimagine their relationship with these type of technical documents reimagine their relationship with resumes with cover letters with any other sort of like technical communication.

[00:36:24] Help them find out how to best communicate their kind of like self in their material. I really loved what she just said about how as a as a writer, really focusing on that relationship with the story you're trying to tell.

[00:36:48] I've done a lot of writing, whether it's its blogs, whether it's a book, whether it's prepping for podcasts. And I've never thought of it that way.

[00:36:59] I've never thought about the idea of like what's my relationship with this story and I definitely feel like I'm able to work on and better understand that story through writing.

[00:37:13] But I've never thought of it as, you know, my relationship with the topic with the subject of what I'm writing. Yeah, the learning continues. Thank you for that. That was awesome. Of course. What do you know to be true about crafting resumes and crafting career narratives?

[00:37:33] The process is different for everybody. Everybody has their own idea about what a resume should look like, you know, some people swear that it has to be either one full page or two full pages, no half pages because that's unprofessional and they'll think it makes it look bad.

[00:37:52] And then there's some people who are just like, you can't use color at all because that's, you know, distracting and then other people are like you have to use color because if you don't that's boring and.

[00:38:03] All these everyone focuses on all these rules, you know, everyone thinks they have like this magic formula about what's going to make a resume stand out.

[00:38:14] Are there rules that you need to follow to make sure that your, that your resume will pass through an applicant tracking system, you know, scanning software. Yes, yes, there are I will admit that. But beyond that. You really just have to focus on.

[00:38:33] How you are going to come across on the page to hiring manager looking at your resume like. That's where the meat is, you know what I mean? Like that's that's the bread and butter is figuring out how to communicate your character values.

[00:38:51] And those things that are most important to you and those things that that help you stand apart from the rest like. That's what's really going to help you in that job.

[00:39:03] And hey, actually like I don't see anyone really talking about that because it is the harder thing, you know, undoubtedly.

[00:39:11] But be I just so tired of saying all of this oh do x, y and z and you'll have the perfect resume it's like no there's no formula there's no formula for being a person.

[00:39:25] You know, there's no one formula for doing any number of jobs just find whatever it is that you truly believe sets you apart and if you can't find that ask a friend.

[00:39:39] Friends are great height men and if your friends aren't great height men then you need to find new friends.

[00:39:45] You know, so get one of them to just tell you some of your best qualities right they don't have to know anything about your job but just get them to to tell you what they think some of your best qualities are.

[00:39:57] And then see if you can tell that you use those qualities in your work because the chances are you do and the chances are that's what makes you as an individual. So worthwhile, you know worthy of the job worthy to know.

[00:40:13] If other people see it in you then it must be true because you know if five people ten people see these characteristics even if you don't believe it like. It's like who's more likely to be wrong you or everyone in your life so.

[00:40:29] Except except that you're good at these things internalize it and then use that to. Go and do the thing that you want to do and and hopefully make someone else's day better while you do it.

[00:40:43] What did you believe early on about crafting resumes and career narratives that you've come to learn to not be true? So for the longest time I thought that I would hate the process of writing resumes and then it wasn't until.

[00:40:56] I actually was working as a graduate writing consultant at Appalachian State University. That. I just kind of I guess naturally told someone like oh don't think of it as writing a resume or an application for like grad school or something.

[00:41:12] I was like think of it as you just trying to showcase your best self and that's when I started to kind of. Like we said, reframe rewrite the idea of a resume into something more like a career narrative within my own mind.

[00:41:31] And that's when I started to realize through helping other people right there is like oh this is actually way cooler than I thought you know this is like much more human centered human focused.

[00:41:46] Then then I thought because you know I'd always seen it as a kind of a. A colder kind of an objective document but.

[00:41:58] When you get down to it, it's it's it's much more personal personal I guess if you're doing it right and if you're trying to you know showcase how you can stand out from the rest so.

[00:42:10] I would say that's that's what I learned is like if you're approaching it as simply. I go. I go back to the next place to do why thing and achieve z and that's it. Then chances are you might be approaching it in a bit of a disconnected way.

[00:42:30] Mm-hmm. And this very much connects with what you've been saying throughout this conversation around changing you know reframing the. And it seems like the arc that you just told was when it went from technical writing to.

[00:42:49] Creating the story and being able to explore the relationship with that story and then being able to tell the story in a way that best represents that individual love that.

[00:43:00] If someone doesn't have access to a professional resume writer what are the one or two things that you would suggest that they do to craft a better story.

[00:43:09] This is going to be one of those really pedantic things but I just want to clarify I have been talking a lot about crafting a personal narrative you do not want to use first person. So many people use first person in a resume.

[00:43:22] Please don't it's a weird convention thing but. It annoys most people. So it's it is kind of an an art. To bring in your heart or write about yourself and third person in a.

[00:43:36] Uh, connected way but that that would be one thing I would say is like don't to. Remember that it's still a professional document you know. But also I would encourage people to if you don't have. Access to a professional.

[00:43:56] I would encourage people to make use of those around you so your friends, your partner, you know, your, you know high school or high school child like. They don't have to be a professional resume writer in order to read your resume and list out. Say ask them.

[00:44:22] What are the top five skills that stand out to you? Um, what character judgments do you think you can make from reading this and resume and.

[00:44:37] You know, does it seem to be an appropriate link, you know, ask them to write those three questions down on a sheet of paper. And then fill them in and if what you see reflected there isn't what you want your resume to come across as then.

[00:44:54] You know, you have to go back and do a bit of finagleing. Um, but definitely make use of whoever you have available to you because they will be able to see things in your resume and honestly.

[00:45:10] They might even then be able to offer a few suggestions, you know, for how you go about tasks that can help you make your resume more robust. That actually sounds like.

[00:45:25] A good life practice of asking friends family members like what what are the five things that I'm good at or what are the five things five words. That you think of when you think of me and if you don't like what she read.

[00:45:39] You might need to change things are you ready for the lightning round. Oh, sure. What's happening around? Well, you're about to you're about to experience it. So first question fill in the blank crafting resumes and career narratives is fun love that.

[00:45:58] Who in your life provides crafting career narratives support for you my partner. Yep, yep is basically the person that I turn into all the time and I'm just like, I just the sound stupid.

[00:46:15] Um, yeah, I'm sure the first response is always entertaining in the second one is the valuable one right. Every time is there a practice or routine that helps you grow nurture or renew your ability to help others with their career narratives.

[00:46:33] Inviting the clients that I work with to share more than they think they're supposed to on a call because so many people get caught up in this headspace of like work and stress.

[00:46:47] So I would say it can be a lot for me too, you know, trying to help these people in this difficult stressful time. So really just encouraging people to share a little bit more.

[00:46:58] Do you have a favorite book or movie that you would recommend that sort of captures this art of crafting a narrative. It actually has absolutely nothing to do with writing recipes. Nothing at all.

[00:47:13] But there is a book called triggering town and it's just it's actually a book about it's either a book about writing poetry or just about creative writing more generally.

[00:47:25] A lot of the advice in the book is really just different ways that you can get yourself out of your own headspace and get yourself a bit more connected with just the world around you.

[00:47:37] And I think then that's something everyone who is trying to write these resumes could really use because so many people they think, oh well if I just if I just focus harder if I just nitpick every single word used and it's just like no no.

[00:47:54] That's not necessary be that will annoy everyone around you. It's like take us back just focus on the essentials and you'll be fine.

[00:48:05] What is one thing that gets in your way of crafting resumes and career narratives every criticism that I have lobbied at people in general it's it's one of those funny things where it's like I give career advice to people.

[00:48:21] All day every business day sometimes on the weekends and yet people will be like oh I need a good example of like a resume or oh I need a good example of a LinkedIn you know by like can I use here something like absolutely not it looks awful.

[00:48:38] You know I'm like I'm a person I'm not a moon. I've put a bit more effort recently into making my materials kind of up to stuff with what they should be given my career but.

[00:48:52] Yeah, I would say I also have a hard time getting out of my own headspace. Yeah, my clients have been very helpful getting me to see the value in my work. That's lovely. Yeah.

[00:49:03] What word or phrase describes what crafting resumes and career narratives feels like when it's had a positive effect. Life changing it's funny because I mean that for hopefully for the person that I've been working with but for myself as well like it's it really is fulfilling work.

[00:49:19] Yeah, I could see that and and I've felt it when we did it how.

[00:49:28] You know it's sort of it lights the other person up and it lights you up when it's having a positive impact and that's that's probably very motivational to jump on that next call to work with that next client to see okay.

[00:49:41] What are we getting into but know that if you go through that process if you focus on the right things you're going to generate that same impact that's awesome.

[00:49:49] If a listener wanted to get a hold of you or follow you where do you want to point them to. And then I'm on LinkedIn and it's literally just my name so it's linked in dot com. Keylon Hawkins.

[00:50:01] If if anyone is bold enough to actually want to reach out to request any sort of like it help advice because I do also offer.

[00:50:13] Free Lance resume writing services just shoot me an email and I can give you kind of like a price for a consultation it's again just kelin Hawkins at gmail.com.

[00:50:24] Kelon thank you so much for taking the time to share with us your approach how you think about the work that you do and. The the wisdom that you've developed over the years of doing this work.

[00:50:38] The gift that you give to people to get out of their head and get out of the rules that they've heard of how to tell that story or how to write those documents and get them thinking more about.

[00:50:50] What's the story that they want to tell and not like what were the responsibilities or you know if if you have one in a half pages it's got to be either one page or two page or. Even getting them to stop using the eye.

[00:51:04] I need to stop using the eye but it might still be there.

[00:51:10] I really do appreciate appreciate you your process your thoughtfulness and the impact it's having with the people you work with because I think I think we need more people to be aware of their story more people would be showing up.

[00:51:27] As they're true self in the workplace and for people to embrace going into that vulnerable space being brave enough to be be vulnerable and really discover what is.

[00:51:40] Their career narrative really getting more connected with their purpose and then being able to live that more fulfilled life because I think everyone benefits when that's happening so thank you for being.

[00:51:53] Part of the process to help people get there and have a a wonderful impact in our communities and our world and you know when people are you know working at. Working in a role that is achieving their purpose that is being meaningful.

[00:52:13] They leave work and they have a positive impact on their communities on their family and the people that they interact with.

[00:52:20] And that makes the world a better place for all of us. So thank you for doing that of course of course it sounds cheesy but it really is my pleasure I.

[00:52:31] It's funny I talk to clients and some of them will feel so bad about taking up your time and I'm just like no like this is. It may sound dumb but this is literally what I love to do you know it's like I'm I'm always just grateful when.

[00:52:48] Clients show up and they want to have those conversations and they want to to be invested you know so it's what I love to do is why I do it and I hope.

[00:52:59] I hope that more people can come to kind of embrace this method of approaching these materials and also just their jobs in their lives because whatever you're currently doing. It is worth while and it is worth doing and it's worth celebrating.

[00:53:18] I love in how in helping other people make their star shine brighter it makes your star shine brighter that's lovely. A rising tide with all ships right there you go there you go. Well, Killing thank you again take care of course thank you.

[00:53:37] Okay I hope you were taking notes on this one the next time you are writing your resume or preparing for an interview.

[00:53:49] I hope you can remember the nuggets of wisdom that Killing shared today and have someone who can create the space for you to explore your purpose in your calling. I love how Killing created that for me when we work together on my narrative and my resume.

[00:54:04] I love how she invites people to explore their purpose to be vulnerable and put words to a purpose that some people may have never thought about before.

[00:54:14] And in doing so Killing is helping us uncover that relationship we have with our own career narrative and rewrite it in a way that is honest authentic powerful and that is inspiring to us. And if we're inspired by it, the better people will be too.

[00:54:32] Thank you Killing I'm so grateful for you sharing your perspectives and experience. I really love how in making other people star shine brighter it brightens your stars as well. It's step in moving from this conversation.

[00:54:46] I think the reflection question for us is what is our relationship with the story we have about our own careers or own vocation. And to what extent is our superhero part of that story?

[00:54:59] If you're not sure what your superhero power is, one of the easiest ways to learn about it is to ask a trusted friend or colleague. What do you know to be true is that three blue pens production. And I'm your host Roger Casner.

[00:55:12] We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duomission Sequoamish people. To discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people who's land you may be on go to native hyphenlands.ca.

[00:55:25] Okay, P. Well my friends my old joke about film film is cheap used to be funny when they actually had film and now it's just bits and bytes. Another resume writer comes on the podcast and tells you something completely different. Just for that you have an exclusive.

[00:55:48] Well, you'll be the only way to write her on. There we go. There we go. Maintain my integrity. There you go. If you ever need to pick me up we all at least I would hope we all have that one friend. I know why I do it.

[00:56:00] It's just like hey man I'm feeling down and then you just get yelled in your ear like oh my gosh you're doing so great. You're the best you can have a small ball and it's just like thank you I needed that all right. Love you.

[00:56:12] I just the sound stupid. Yeah, I'm sure the first response is always entertaining in the second one is the valuable one right? Every time they might be a little triggered to begin with but. Yes, it's going to trigger town anyway you might as well have a manual.

[00:56:36] Yeah, may as well read the book. I don't like that. That's that's a good example of something I'm going to edit out.