What’s the difference between a story and a narrative?
As business owner and narrative consultant, Guillaume shares with us, the old question of the glass half full or half empty can be instructive. The glass itself is the story, your perspective on its disposition is the narrative.
***True Snacks is a bite-sized learning excerpt from the full What Do You Know To Be True? podcast episode. To watch the full episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8pv9WS9Fes&list=PLbWfh34FP_dUcAaCrI31z00_fLdphi6b7&index=12&t=25s ***
In this conversation, Guillaume helps me understand the difference between a story and narrative, and how the process is both a decluttering of noise, and a creating of clarity.
Guillaume also gives a glimpse of the actions he took to take control of the strategic narrative for his own company.
If someone were to ask me before this conversation what Guillaume does, I would have said that he helps entrepreneurs and business owners craft the story they tell about the why, how, and what they do.
Problem is, that would have been wrong.
Guillaume is quick to use words like abundance, joy, and love, but is clear about how these things need to be applied in a systematic approach that produces money, for his clients and him.
He also says that for many new business owners, despite what Simon Sinak says, starting with why can be dangerous.
In this episode, Guillaume answers the following questions:
• What is the difference between a story and narrative?
• How is narrative used in business?
• What does narrative literally mean?
• What are some common examples of narratives in business?
Links to resources mentioned in the episode:
- Guillaume’s company, Metahelm: https://www.metahelm.com/
Chapters
0:00 Difference between Story and Narrative
2:07 Creating a Strategic Narrative
7:09 Letting go to let your Superpower Shine
If you like the conversation, please share this episode with one other person. Thank you!
Music in this episode created by Ian Kastner.
"What Do You Know To Be True?" is a series of conversations where I speak with interesting people about their special talent or superhero power and the meaningful impact it has on others. The intention is to learn more about their experience with their superhero power, so that we can learn something about the special talent in each of us which allows us to connect more deeply with our purpose.
For more info and to subscribe to the podcast, go to: https://www.youtube.com/@WDYKTBT?sub_confirmation=1
"What Do You Know To Be True?" is hosted by Roger Kastner, is a production of Three Blue Pens, and is recorded on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people. To discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you may be on, go to: https://native-land.ca/
ABOUT THE PODCAST
"What Do You Know To Be True?" is a podcast series with ordinary people about their extraordinary talent, their superhero power, and the meaningful impact it has on others.
Charting a path to unlocking one's potential starts with a deeper understanding of one’s superpower and how to make a meaningful impact in service of others.
In these conversations, Roger Kastner seeks to discover more about our guests' path to purpose and unlocking potential by exploring their journey from developing their extraordinary talent to creating meaningful impact for others.
The goal of these conversations is not to try to emulate it or “hack” our way to a new talent. Instead, these conversations are to inspire you to think deeply about how to create positive impact in service of others.
This podcast is for Org Development practitioners, coaches, mentors, and anyone who works with other people to unlock their challenges and achieve more. Our audience thinks deeply about their work, the space they hold, and the positive impact it brings to others.
Our guests bring humility, insights, gratitude, and humor as they delve deep into their experiences and share their wisdom. They are ordinary people, with extraordinary talent, who have made a meaningful impact.
TRANSCRIPTS
Guillaume: I have a different way to define stories and narrative than, uh, most people. And my, my way to define this is to, I separate stories and narrative. For me, there are two different things. Although we use them interchangeably in our daily conversations, um, they obviously have, uh, there's an, there's a, there's an overlap, obviously, you know, even if you look in the dictionary, the, the first layer, the first level definitions are the same.
This, where it gets interesting is in the second level of the definition, second layers. To me, a story is a piece that is a closed ended. It has a beginning, a middle, and that's why when we use, when we use the core principle of storytelling in, uh, in movie making or marketing, uh, we always say, oh yeah, uh, you know, the, there's gotta be a happy ending, there's gotta be a close, right?
And then maybe we, we reopen another story loop later on the. On the contrary, narratives are open ended. A narrative never ends. A narrative is a perspective. It's, it's the way you look at things. It's the way you, you think about things. So, for instance, if I, you know, here I have a, I'm sipping a glass of water as we're having this conversation.
Um, this glass of water is half empty. But it's also helpful. Same story, two different narratives. So if you apply these principles, you, um, you, you, you start realizing that narratives influence everything we do as a society. In fact, uh, some scientists believe that it's the reason why the human species is still in existence because we have this, this ability to make up stuff, to imagine things, to tell lies, to gossip, to completely twist the reality.
Right. Uh, when we are about to fail and almost die, we still believe in hope and imagine a world where we survive and we actually end up surviving. Yay. So that's the power of narrative here. What we do with Meta Helm is that we look at, uh, those professional services firms, whether they are small or big.
I mean, my clients range from, uh, one person, solo partner, you know, independent expert businesses, to about 2000 people. And, and I look at these and I look at these from four different angles, uh, visionary leadership. I look at the, the leaders, how they operate, what's their, what's their narrative marketing, obviously, because that's the primary, uh, place where narrative has a lot of power and then operations, how teams form, uh, operate and continue to grow and then sales.
And in those four areas, what I've noticed over the 30 years that I've been in consulting is that, uh, there is a bunch of narratives that get in the way. They're kind of like, um, autopilot things, auto mode, right? How, how do we sell in, how do we sell in B2B services? It's kind of a no brainer. Oh yeah. I get on calls and then.
I fill out a, you know, a multi pages proposals and then I wait for the clients to call me. Like, this is a really bad narrative. This, don't do that. Okay. This is not how you sell properly in B2B services. So, so I look at this and I help those leaders defy that norm because that norm is wrong and they know that norm is wrong and they come to me and they say, Hey, we know that this is, this isn't working for us.
And, and maybe there are other things that we don't see that are not working for us. Can you help us look at these narratives and change them? When I look at a narrative, it's a, the last, and then I'll pause because, uh, this is like kind of a quick crash course of what narrative power is. When I do this work, I look at three things, uh, obviously what we say.
Right. And when, when we think about storytelling, most people will, will think about it as a practice that includes words. Obviously, you know, we, it's communications, how you write, it's how you structure a story and so on. Uh, to me, that's just a visible part of the iceberg. It's how it was obviously what you say, but it's most importantly, how you think it's your mindset, like the narrative.
Uh, you know, already exist and you haven't said a thing, even when you look at something, right? Again, that glass that I have in my hands, I didn't say anything. And then I already, I can already feel it or I see it, you know, if I, if I'm in a bad mood or judging mood or I'm going to lean towards saying, ah, it's half empty.
So the mindset influences that, that narrative a lot. So there, there's a lot of, um, uh, there's a lot of research on that. In fact, as a therapist. You know, therapist, they, they used narrative to heal people, uh, you know, to get people to, um, uh, to more balanced and productive lives through the, through that power.
So it's, it's really a mindset piece. And then the third thing, uh, that is equally powerful is through what we do, how we behave, our systems, our procedures, uh, our, Yeah, everything we have in place. So a good example for this is, uh, in my field is, uh, regulated professions, you know, professions that have to follow, uh, certain principles, certain procedures by law, right?
Like doctors or, or lawyers, for instance. Uh, if you go to, uh, to a lawyer's or doctor's office, the narrative, like no one has talked to you yet. And you, you enter the waiting room, And the narrative is in full force. You don't control this place. You don't control the frame. There's probably, uh, furniture that indicates, uh, stability and clout.
There's probably a diploma hung on the wall, um, and you have to wait. And the white room is, is, is in such a way traditionally is designed in such a way that, uh, we tell you when you can come and talk and we give you a form to, to fill out. Right. So, so you, you don't control the narrative there. It's, it's completely controlled for you.
And I noticed that in a lot of business, um, business to business professions, we don't pay attention to these things because we are not forced to do that because we want freedom. Right. You're welcome. And freedom is our worst enemy in that scenario, right? So we don't think about these. Um, we forget them.
So my job is to make sure that the clients that I work with are conscious of this and that they make better and more informed decisions about these narratives. I let them choose. I show them possibilities. Um, and I always do that in alignment with who they are and who they want to be as a leader. Hence, uh, my definition of what I, my value proposition is not only your firm will work better, but also you will, you will love that firm.
You know, it's not gonna, it's not like it's going to drain you or Um, you're going to be really, really proud of it. Uh, and if you're really, really proud of it, you know, it's going to work even better.
Roger: And I got to see that in the project where we worked together, where we were not only helping the leader come up with the words to say, um, of how this project, yep.
How it ties to the longer term vision, what's going to be necessary. But we also talked about mindset. Yep. And what are the mindset shifts that need to happen amongst, you know, the leadership team. And then we talked about the behaviors that show that these things are true, which we now refer to as psychological safety.
If, if the leaders show that something is true, that we actually are, um, consistently behaving in a way that allows this thing to happen. It, it gives, it gives a signal to the rest of the organization to come along.
Guillaume: Yeah. So the project that we are working on, you, you, uh, you had brought me on, uh, as a graphic facilitator.
Graphic facilitation is the use of real time drawings to capture, represent, illustrate conversations that are happening so that everybody has, uh, a common definition, a common view or representation of the conversations, which increases alignment, efficiency, a feeling of being heard and so on. So that's, that's what we did.
It's one of the many techniques that I have in my portfolio of tools. Uh, so it was very specific to, uh, to that particular technique. I, um, I still use that technique today, Roger, since we're, we're catching up on, on our projects in life. I still do use that technique. I, I don't, uh, advertise, um, I don't advertise for it as an independent service, as a separate service.
I use that technique. with my clients when it's necessary. The reason is, I started MetaHelm with that hypothesis, with that assumption that I would lead with that, with, with the pen, you know, the marker. I would be the guy who, wherever I show up, I would, I would have a flip chart and draw things. And my, um, my, my narrative, my assumption was that this is great because when things are visual, uh, it catches people's eye, captures people's attention.
And that will get me in more conversations about, uh, things that I could do through consulting. So it's going to help my business. And one of the things that I realized after a year and a half or two is that it was conveying the wrong message. It was actually fueling the wrong narrative because there was a more powerful narrative than me that I can not change.
And that narrative is that when people draw, they are the artists. It's fun. Uh, it's exciting. It makes things, uh, pop. Um, but we don't think of these people as strategic thinkers. We think of them as, uh, putting beauty on, on something that is not very, that's not, that's not very clear, not beautiful. So we, we don't have that, that Uber narrative of, of drawing as a strategic tool.
It has started to change, uh, people like Dan Rome, uh, the author of, um, you know, the back of the napkins, uh, have worked really intensely in the, in the past couple of decades to change that narrative. But there is, it's still, it's still trying, you know, it's still like trying to move a huge cargo ship in a different direction.
It takes a lot of time. Yeah. I could,
Roger: I could see how the artist is seen as reflecting a narrative, not driving the narrative. Yeah. Yeah.
Guillaume: Exactly. Exactly. So, um, so I stopped doing it because I was just getting called for, you know, for, to show up at the once at the yearly retreat and, or come to birthday parties and Christmas parties.
Um, and I was telling people I would love to, I would love to come. It sounds really fun. Um, but that's not part of my services at the moment. So it was, it was, it was, uh, misinterpreted. You had a greater,
Roger: you had a greater power. You had more, Yeah. That narrative power was something you wanted to focus on.
Guillaume: Exactly. It was more for me to really align what, what would make me work this way for a long time. So I'm a, I'm a long, I'm a long term, um, strategic partner with my clients and my clients. I worked with them for one year or two years, three or four years, and sometimes even more. And I just felt like just coming once to listen and draw what people were talking about was just not me.
It was not me. using my, you know, my, uh, my secret power. How do you define it? Roger? My
Roger: either extraordinary talent or superhero power.
Guillaume: Thank you. My extraordinary talent or superhero. I was just, I just felt like I was not using this. Um, properly. Um, and I thought, in fact, I would, I started to also realize that other people would be a better fit for those clients that just wanted me to come for one time things or just to facilitate.
And so I started passing my business to other colleagues who do that better than me. So for me, it was a process of, um, uh, of really aligning with, you know, where I, where I'm supposed to be, what I'm supposed to be doing and, and the way I'm supposed to be doing.
Guillaume: I have a different way to define stories and narrative than, uh, most people. And my, my way to define this is to, I separate stories and narrative. For me, there are two different things. Although we use them interchangeably in our daily conversations, um, they obviously have, uh, there's an, there's a, there's an overlap, obviously, you know, even if you look in the dictionary, the, the first layer, the first level definitions are the same.
This, where it gets interesting is in the second level of the definition, second layers. To me, a story is a piece that is a closed ended. It has a beginning, a middle, and that's why when we use, when we use the core principle of storytelling in, uh, in movie making or marketing, uh, we always say, oh yeah, uh, you know, the, there's gotta be a happy ending, there's gotta be a close, right?
And then maybe we, we reopen another story loop later on the. On the contrary, narratives are open ended. A narrative never ends. A narrative is a perspective. It's, it's the way you look at things. It's the way you, you think about things. So, for instance, if I, you know, here I have a, I'm sipping a glass of water as we're having this conversation.
Um, this glass of water is half empty. But it's also helpful. Same story, two different narratives. So if you apply these principles, you, um, you, you, you start realizing that narratives influence everything we do as a society. In fact, uh, some scientists believe that it's the reason why the human species is still in existence because we have this, this ability to make up stuff, to imagine things, to tell lies, to gossip, to completely twist the reality.
Right. Uh, when we are about to fail and almost die, we still believe in hope and imagine a world where we survive and we actually end up surviving. Yay. So that's the power of narrative here. What we do with Meta Helm is that we look at, uh, those professional services firms, whether they are small or big.
I mean, my clients range from, uh, one person, solo partner, you know, independent expert businesses, to about 2000 people. And, and I look at these and I look at these from four different angles, uh, visionary leadership. I look at the, the leaders, how they operate, what's their, what's their narrative marketing, obviously, because that's the primary, uh, place where narrative has a lot of power and then operations, how teams form, uh, operate and continue to grow and then sales.
And in those four areas, what I've noticed over the 30 years that I've been in consulting is that, uh, there is a bunch of narratives that get in the way. They're kind of like, um, autopilot things, auto mode, right? How, how do we sell in, how do we sell in B2B services? It's kind of a no brainer. Oh yeah. I get on calls and then.
I fill out a, you know, a multi pages proposals and then I wait for the clients to call me. Like, this is a really bad narrative. This, don't do that. Okay. This is not how you sell properly in B2B services. So, so I look at this and I help those leaders defy that norm because that norm is wrong and they know that norm is wrong and they come to me and they say, Hey, we know that this is, this isn't working for us.
And, and maybe there are other things that we don't see that are not working for us. Can you help us look at these narratives and change them? When I look at a narrative, it's a, the last, and then I'll pause because, uh, this is like kind of a quick crash course of what narrative power is. When I do this work, I look at three things, uh, obviously what we say.
Right. And when, when we think about storytelling, most people will, will think about it as a practice that includes words. Obviously, you know, we, it's communications, how you write, it's how you structure a story and so on. Uh, to me, that's just a visible part of the iceberg. It's how it was obviously what you say, but it's most importantly, how you think it's your mindset, like the narrative.
Uh, you know, already exist and you haven't said a thing, even when you look at something, right? Again, that glass that I have in my hands, I didn't say anything. And then I already, I can already feel it or I see it, you know, if I, if I'm in a bad mood or judging mood or I'm going to lean towards saying, ah, it's half empty.
So the mindset influences that, that narrative a lot. So there, there's a lot of, um, uh, there's a lot of research on that. In fact, as a therapist. You know, therapist, they, they used narrative to heal people, uh, you know, to get people to, um, uh, to more balanced and productive lives through the, through that power.
So it's, it's really a mindset piece. And then the third thing, uh, that is equally powerful is through what we do, how we behave, our systems, our procedures, uh, our, Yeah, everything we have in place. So a good example for this is, uh, in my field is, uh, regulated professions, you know, professions that have to follow, uh, certain principles, certain procedures by law, right?
Like doctors or, or lawyers, for instance. Uh, if you go to, uh, to a lawyer's or doctor's office, the narrative, like no one has talked to you yet. And you, you enter the waiting room, And the narrative is in full force. You don't control this place. You don't control the frame. There's probably, uh, furniture that indicates, uh, stability and clout.
There's probably a diploma hung on the wall, um, and you have to wait. And the white room is, is, is in such a way traditionally is designed in such a way that, uh, we tell you when you can come and talk and we give you a form to, to fill out. Right. So, so you, you don't control the narrative there. It's, it's completely controlled for you.
And I noticed that in a lot of business, um, business to business professions, we don't pay attention to these things because we are not forced to do that because we want freedom. Right. You're welcome. And freedom is our worst enemy in that scenario, right? So we don't think about these. Um, we forget them.
So my job is to make sure that the clients that I work with are conscious of this and that they make better and more informed decisions about these narratives. I let them choose. I show them possibilities. Um, and I always do that in alignment with who they are and who they want to be as a leader. Hence, uh, my definition of what I, my value proposition is not only your firm will work better, but also you will, you will love that firm.
You know, it's not gonna, it's not like it's going to drain you or Um, you're going to be really, really proud of it. Uh, and if you're really, really proud of it, you know, it's going to work even better.
Roger: And I got to see that in the project where we worked together, where we were not only helping the leader come up with the words to say, um, of how this project, yep.
How it ties to the longer term vision, what's going to be necessary. But we also talked about mindset. Yep. And what are the mindset shifts that need to happen amongst, you know, the leadership team. And then we talked about the behaviors that show that these things are true, which we now refer to as psychological safety.
If, if the leaders show that something is true, that we actually are, um, consistently behaving in a way that allows this thing to happen. It, it gives, it gives a signal to the rest of the organization to come along.
Guillaume: Yeah. So the project that we are working on, you, you, uh, you had brought me on, uh, as a graphic facilitator.
Graphic facilitation is the use of real time drawings to capture, represent, illustrate conversations that are happening so that everybody has, uh, a common definition, a common view or representation of the conversations, which increases alignment, efficiency, a feeling of being heard and so on. So that's, that's what we did.
It's one of the many techniques that I have in my portfolio of tools. Uh, so it was very specific to, uh, to that particular technique. I, um, I still use that technique today, Roger, since we're, we're catching up on, on our projects in life. I still do use that technique. I, I don't, uh, advertise, um, I don't advertise for it as an independent service, as a separate service.
I use that technique. with my clients when it's necessary. The reason is, I started MetaHelm with that hypothesis, with that assumption that I would lead with that, with, with the pen, you know, the marker. I would be the guy who, wherever I show up, I would, I would have a flip chart and draw things. And my, um, my, my narrative, my assumption was that this is great because when things are visual, uh, it catches people's eye, captures people's attention.
And that will get me in more conversations about, uh, things that I could do through consulting. So it's going to help my business. And one of the things that I realized after a year and a half or two is that it was conveying the wrong message. It was actually fueling the wrong narrative because there was a more powerful narrative than me that I can not change.
And that narrative is that when people draw, they are the artists. It's fun. Uh, it's exciting. It makes things, uh, pop. Um, but we don't think of these people as strategic thinkers. We think of them as, uh, putting beauty on, on something that is not very, that's not, that's not very clear, not beautiful. So we, we don't have that, that Uber narrative of, of drawing as a strategic tool.
It has started to change, uh, people like Dan Rome, uh, the author of, um, you know, the back of the napkins, uh, have worked really intensely in the, in the past couple of decades to change that narrative. But there is, it's still, it's still trying, you know, it's still like trying to move a huge cargo ship in a different direction.
It takes a lot of time. Yeah. I could,
Roger: I could see how the artist is seen as reflecting a narrative, not driving the narrative. Yeah. Yeah.
Guillaume: Exactly. Exactly. So, um, so I stopped doing it because I was just getting called for, you know, for, to show up at the once at the yearly retreat and, or come to birthday parties and Christmas parties.
Um, and I was telling people I would love to, I would love to come. It sounds really fun. Um, but that's not part of my services at the moment. So it was, it was, it was, uh, misinterpreted. You had a greater,
Roger: you had a greater power. You had more, Yeah. That narrative power was something you wanted to focus on.
Guillaume: Exactly. It was more for me to really align what, what would make me work this way for a long time. So I'm a, I'm a long, I'm a longterm, um, strategic partner with my clients and my clients. I worked with them for one year or two years, three or four years, and sometimes even more. And I just felt like just coming once to listen and draw what people were talking about was just not me.
It was not me. using my, you know, my, uh, my secret power. How do you define it? Roger? My
Roger: either extraordinary talent or superhero power.
Guillaume: Thank you. My extraordinary talent or superhero. I was just, I just felt like I was not using this. Um, properly. Um, and I thought, in fact, I would, I started to also realize that other people would be a better fit for those clients that just wanted me to come for one time things or just to facilitate.
And so I started passing my business to other colleagues who do that better than me. So for me, it was a process of, um, uh, of really aligning with, you know, where I, where I'm supposed to be, what I'm supposed to be doing and, and the way I'm supposed to be doing.
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