Empowering Others To Own Their Voice | Sports Broadcaster Jen Mueller

Roger: As a leader, coach, or mentor, our role is to help others find their voice and tell their story. And like you, I want to get better at this for the people I support. So I took the opportunity to ask someone who gets paid to be a storyteller and help others tell their stories.

Jen: It's not the sport. That you are going to be connected to.

It's the people you're going to be connected to. And at the end of the day, if I can give you one or two ways to communicate more effectively with the people that you are around every day, whether it's your spouse, your friends, your colleagues, your boss, your team, then I've done my job.

Roger: Sports is the most compelling form of entertainment because it's at a Spinal Tap 11. When it comes to story and storytellers, sports showcases athletes at their physical peak competing against other physical specimens. It has coaches with their strategy and moves, and counter moves. There's heroes and villains, conflict and rising tension, moments of doubt and hope, and there.

Always resolution at the end, maybe it elevates, maybe it devastates. Sports also has merch inviting fans to show off their colors and adopt part of the team identity as their own. Have you ever seen anyone wear a sweatshirt that said “Montagues” or a hat that said “Capulets”? I don't think so. There's one more thing.

There's the storytellers, sports broadcasters and journalists are the narrators of the game, the teams and their players. They help us understand the story behind the story and create a deeper emotional connection with the players, coaches and the teams. And if you're familiar with the Seattle sports scene, you will know today's guest, Jen Mueller.

Jen: I love talking sports. Like I love watching sports and talking sports, but what makes my job worthwhile is the people.

Roger: Jen is a sports broadcaster and a producer and has been a key part of the Seattle Seahawks and Seattle Mariners fan experience today. I'm grateful to sit down with Jen and learn more about her extraordinary talent of empowering others to own their voice.

Jen frequently interviews athletes right after they've made the game winning play and when they've made a mistake to lose the game and she does not shy away from asking the difficult questions. Not only because that's her job, but because the athletes and coaches want the opportunity to answer those questions and tell their story.

Jen: The way that I build relationships with athletes in a locker room or clubhouse is truly having 15 to 30 to 60 second conversations. And you've got to trust that if you show up consistently and that you know what you're trying to accomplish, that works. If you keep waiting for that big long conversation to really solidify the relationship, it's never going to happen because that's just not the way it works.

Roger: Jen takes the lessons she's learned from sports and shares them as a keynote speaker. A leadership consultant and as a content creator on YouTube and Instagram. And in this conversation, Jen shines with how she approaches her work with empathy, love, joy, and in recognition of the humanity of the people she interviews.

And all that work has to pay off in the crucible of 30 to 60 second interviews. After an athlete has either had the best moment of their season, possibly The worst moment of their career.

Jen: They really want to be careful about how I ask a question so that I am phrasing it in the best possible way to facilitate an open conversation, because when the answer is easy and obvious, now people can actually give you the real answer and they can be vulnerable, right?

I need to create the space. To make that easy for you to talk about when I do that. Everybody wins.

Roger: Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the, what do you know to be true podcast. In these conversations, I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill, their superhero power and the meaningful impact it has on others.

The goal is not to emulate or try to hack our way to a new talent. Instead, the intention is to learn more about. Their experience with their superpower. And in doing so, we can learn something about the special talent, each of us that drives us towards our potential. If you're ready. Let's dive in.

Hey, Jen, thank you for joining me today. It's an honor to have you on the podcast.

Jen: Well, thanks so much for asking me to join you, Roger.

Roger: My pleasure. And I'm really excited to learn what you know about being a broadcaster, an entrepreneur, a keynote speaker, and really helping people own their own voice.

Which is your rockstar power. And I'll describe a little bit why I'm referring to that as a rockstar power in a moment. Um, so I know you from your sideline reporting with the Seattle Seahawks and the work you do with the Seattle Mariners, and yet it was earlier this year, you wrote an article about the leadership lessons you've learned and witnessed, uh, working with Pete Carroll, the training facilities and on the sidelines of the Seattle Seahawks.

And it was just such a powerful. article that you wrote that I, I just had to learn more. It was by fate that I ran into you at a Starbucks as you were getting ready to not only go work a game at the Mariners, but I saw you were actually editing a video there. And like you're, you're, you're, you're in the grind and you're, you're getting ready to, you know, Publish one of those, those videos that you're so prolific about, about sharing those lessons that you learn, uh, by working with teams and athletes and how that translates into things we could use in whether it's our workplace or in our relationship.

So I'm so excited to get to learn more about that. But before we get into all of that, what can you share with us? That's important for us to know about Jen Muller.

Jen: Everything that you see on TV and radio, those have been lessons that I have had to figure out along the way, and while I have always been comfortable talking on camera and in front of people, I have not always been comfortable trying to figure out how to insert or assert my voice into certain situations.

So there's been a lot of trial and error to figure out the best way to be noticed. When you look at what I've done. If I were to tell you that I have built all of that on 15 second interactions, you might not believe it. But that was the only thing that I was guaranteed to get when I met people early in my career.

And when I wanted people to give me a shot, whether it was an athlete giving me an interview or somebody giving me a job interview, or when I launched my business to get potential clients, you know, you can schedule all the coffee meetings in the world that you want, But just because you have 30 to 60 minutes with somebody does not mean that you have their attention for that entire time.

I know that I can capture your attention in 15 seconds. I can nail that message and I can set up the next opportunity. So like all of the big things that you see, it really came back to a 15 second something along the way that set everything else in motion.

Roger: What I knew about you before that article was the sideline reporting the, you know, where they throw the post game interview to you.

And sometimes you have to dodge a Gatorade bath or other, you know, silliness that's going on on the field with the, with the athlete and their teammates, but yeah, you only get a couple seconds there, but obviously there's a lot of work that goes in before that. And then yeah, cleaning the Gatorade off your shoes afterwards.

But there's a lot of work. There's a lot of work that goes into that. And, uh, I would imagine there's a lot of work that goes into developing those relationships with those athletes, with the coaches, in order to make that 15 seconds, 30 seconds shine. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?

Jen: Well, that's all I get though. Yeah, I mean really I wouldn't say it's so much work Is that it's being strategic and intentional before I get to those interactions? So when i'm in a locker room or clubhouse or even with coaches My networking looks really different I mean, we don't schedule coffee meetings. We don't go to happy hours when I'm at the Seahawks facility.

Yeah, we eat lunch in the same cafeteria, but at different times. We're not sitting together for extended periods of time. The way that I build relationships with athletes in a locker room or clubhouse is truly having 15 to 30 to 60 second conversations. You walk by their locker, you say hi. You check in.

You have something strategic and intentional that you wanna talk about, and you just make the rounds every day. And you've gotta trust that if you show up consistently and that you know what you're trying to accomplish, that works. If you keep waiting for that big, long conversation to really solidify the relationship, it's never gonna happen.

'cause that's just not the way it works with reporters and athletes or in the sports space in general. So, um, the work is actually on the front side. It's talking to myself on the way to the ballpark or the practice facility or the stadium saying, okay, what am I going to get out of today, right? Do I need interviews?

Do I need to check in on somebody? Oh, I haven't talked to that person in a long time. I bet I'm going to need to interview them next week. So you know what I need to do now, talk to them before I need something from them. Right? And just kind of, you just got like all of these pots kind of simmering, and you just have to keep them all going.

And it's again, not about the time you spent, it's the quality of those interactions.

Roger: There's got to be a lot of not only like recognition of what's important to them, there's got to be a lot of empathy. That's involved in this and just being able to recognize what's important to these to these individuals And having what what might seem like it's not quite small talk because it's not it's not small It's investment.

It makes me think of something that pete carroll talks about About those, you know the the five positive experiences before you could have the one Conversation where you're holding someone accountable where you're giving them critical feedback, but you have to make those investments those five Touches that are positive that are building them up.

Is there something is there something at play like that?

Jen: Yeah, in fact, it's funny that you say that and that it's that specific So I will tell you my measure of success in relationship building and it is the word. Hello Again, we keep looking for this really big interaction and what I tell people and I tell my corporate clients when I go in and do keynotes.

If you're looking for a measure of success and you're not finding it in big ways, then find it in small ways. So when I walk into a clubhouse and I introduced myself to somebody for the first time, all I'm doing is trying to say hello. And then what I'm looking for is about four to five times of saying hello.

That's probably the only interaction we're going to have. They might be running onto the field. They might be coming off from VP. There's any number of things. All I'm going to do is say, Hi, Cal. Hey, Logan. When they start saying hi back to me, that's a win. And when they say hi, Jen, that's two wins. And I know that that seems ridiculous, but how many times do we walk past people on the sidewalk and we don't even lift our heads?

Right. The number of times that we're buried in our phones or we have our noise cancelling headphones on the athletes do the same thing. So when they actually acknowledge you, that's a win. And when you acknowledge them, it is a win for them. And I'll tell you, um, so last year, the Seahawks played in Detroit.

We won overtime. Um, Tyler Lockett scores in the corner of the end zone. And I happen to celebrate that. Which I don't generally do, but I jumped up not realizing that the TV cameras were on me. So all the guys could see me in the background of this shot. I made the team highlight reel that week. I'm very excited about that for the first time in my career.

And at least it was something positive. And it wasn't me, you know, like falling on my face on the sidelines. I got so many messages from the guys or guys coming up and saying, Hey, we saw that. That was cool. That was so you. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, at what point have you ever seen me jumping on the sidelines after, after a player, after a game or after a win?

And then I started to realize I don't do that, but I do acknowledge their success. So this goes back to you have to know what's important to them. It does not have to be a full fledged conversation, but when they come off the practice field and I say, I saw that catch. That was a hell of a catch. Or, you know, Hey, I meant to come and find you.

You snuck out of the locker room before I could get to you. I saw that block. That was a great block that you made. They might not ever say anything back to me and that's okay. Relationship building happens whether you're hearing it from the other person or not. And sometimes we overlook that and we keep trying to force things to happen instead of just recognizing that as long as you were doing the thing with strategy and intention.

You can be building relationships in these really small ways, but those five touch points that you talk about before needing to have a critical conversation, they can all happen in a week with one word because then my critical conversation with those guys is after the loss because everybody thinks about how much fun this job is when you win.

And it's awesome. But the flip side of that is, after a loss, I still have to go in there and do interviews, and I have to do as many interviews after a loss as after a win. Again, like, I can talk, if they would let me talk, I would talk a lot to those guys. But if everybody's going to be in a hurry and, you know, run in between things, I'll take the one or two word exchanges all day long.

Roger: The idea of saying hello and that's it. And if you can add their name, I noticed that when you're talking to each player, you were mentioning the name and like, whenever anyone uses my name. In a meeting in a conversation, it kind of makes me feel like maybe I'm in trouble. But the difference I would say is when when you're just saying hello.

Hello, Jen. Hello, Roger And and as you're saying walking down the street when you say hello to people with a smile Like they just light up and I think there's something about as humans We just want to be recognized and we just want to be loved which gets to that next step of When you're saying hello and using their name and they're starting to say hello and using your name back That's almost opening the door for the next time.

It's like hey, I saw you You I saw you make that play. I saw you working really hard. And again, it's building up that recognition that you actually care about them. Yep. And now you can have a different conversation.

Jen: Yeah. And you care about them regardless of the results. High performers are used to exceeding expectations or being the ones that set the bar and whether they were told that, you know, they needed to reach a certain level of success or they take it on themselves.

Not everybody is going to succeed every day. And so being able to recognize people for just being who they are and not what they did goes a long way too.

Roger: Well, there's a video that was just going viral of Roger Federer talking about how he only wins like 54 percent of Most sports teams, the difference between first place and last place, maybe not in baseball, because they have so many games, but for a lot of other teams, a lot of other sports, it's only a couple of wins and those wins come down to just a couple of plays.

So there, you know, we're, we're talking about razor's edge things here, but like you said, you have to go talk to them, whether they win or lose. Well, our 31 teams are going to not meet. Expectation to not meet hopes and dreams. That's a lot of having to go have conversations with people that are maybe not in the best mood and maybe not want to share about, you know, the failing and, and I think most, most athletes at that level.

And I would say most leaders in organizations probably feel some level of accountability or contribution. To that thing, not working well, if they're acting with accountability. So it, yeah, I imagine, I imagine those conversations are really difficult.

Jen: Well, I was going to say they are, and they aren't because here's the difference in sports.

The difference in sports is everybody understands what the outcome should have been. Right. In sports, you know, the team that won is this is the team that scored the most points. Like the winner is super obvious in sports. Like, it's painfully obvious, right? You don't get to the end of the game and go, well, who won that game?

Right? We don't do the same thing in business. There's too many times where top level leadership, their version of success is very different than their middle manager's version of success, which is very different than their first time employees version of success. And if you don't have the same level or the same like goal, you're never going to be able to hold people accountable.

And now you actually have a big problem. Talking to and I say this with all the love in my heart because I actually give a keynote speech called I talk to losers and it's and it's this exact situation, right? It is remarkably easy to go into a clubhouse or a locker room. Now, I'm not saying it feels good.

But it is much easier than you think because they know when they committed the air in the seventh inning. They know, and they are expecting you to ask about it because everybody saw that they booted that ball. A receiver who dropped the pass in the end zone. They know exactly what they did. They know what the expectation is and what they don't want to hear is.

You tried really hard and you did a good job. No, you didn't. Nope. You didn't. You missed the play. And that's kind of one of those things where sports, we are super direct. That accountability is greater than in any business you will ever be in. And people understand what's at play. And Pete Carroll is a great example and all coaches.

The way that you give feedback and praise sets the tone for how challenging those conversations are going to be. No coach or manager will say a player did a great job when what they actually did was their job. And there's a big difference, right? I can say thanks for getting the job done, or I knew I could count on you to get the job done, but I'm not going to come back and say great job if you didn't actually do a great job.

Cause now I just backed myself into a corner when I have to have that hard conversation. Right. And so I think sports gives us a lot of framework and blueprint around how you actually approach this. I would also say this, in those interviews after losses, don't try to sidestep that question, man. Like, you better come right at it, get it over with, because they know it's coming, and then just move on to the next topic.

Roger: Can we create a system of accountability That we have a shared definition of what accountability means and oftentimes If we don't have a shared definition of success, it's going to be really hard to hold ourselves accountable Because we're going after different things.

We're not pulling our oars in the same direction so being able to have a Accountability conversation those athletes are expecting it in the workplace if You know, it's it work is a team sport. Yet we don't have the same goals. We don't understand what accountability means. Even though we use that word all the time.

It could be we're going to get in trouble if we raise our hands and I screwed up. Or it could be the expectation is you're going to raise your hand and have a plan to how to how you're going to fix that thing. Um, it's, you know, things are more. Complicated in business, but I don't know if they have to be.

Jen: I don't think they have to be. I do think it goes back to, again, what are you trying to get out of conversations and what are you trying to get out of people? I mean, there's so many books written on like effective communication, but you're not, it's not more, right? It's not, it's not more words around what our mission is or what accountability is.

It's bringing it down to some really basic things. And can you have that conversation quite honestly, on a daily basis? Because a post game interview is both a performance review and a post mortem every single time you do one of those. And in business, we tend to push that off because we're waiting for actual performance review season or, you know, your six months.

You know, we're checking in on this to see if you're meeting goals. Part of it is just the structure of what we don't need that. You know, it's better if we get a bigger body of work. And that is true. But I think we miss opportunities to have that conversation right then and there because we think it's going to be hard and it doesn't have to be hard. It just has to be a conversation.

Roger: And what's coming through to me very strongly is this, this idea of courage, having the courage to go talk to those athletes about the thing where they, where they might've made a mistake. Where they might not have put in enough effort or they, you know, drop the ball, whatever that is, you, they expect it.

They expect to have that high level accountability conversation because so many other parts in their life, you know, they have a, you know, a stadium full of 50, 70, 000 people cheering them or booing them without a, without a clear understanding of what's going on. They expect you to know. And if you, if you show up and you don't have that courage and you don't answer that question, I imagine trust and respect just drop.

But you have to have that courage to come in and ask them the question that they're expecting to answer.

Jen: Yes, and I think it's vulnerability on both sides, right? It's the vulnerability to ask the question that you really don't know the answer to. I can think I know the answer to that, but I don't unless I was involved in that play.

I could think it was your fault, but it's not actually your fault because something else happened and it's vulnerability on their side to trust that I am trying to set them up to succeed, not to throw somebody else under the bus. Not to call out a coach, not to make somebody in the front office upset with them.

Um, there's a lot of different audiences when you're doing a post game interview, which is just like business, right? You've got a lot of different sections of the business or silos or whatever it is, business interest. And part of that conversation has to be trust on both sides that I'm not going to turn to the gotcha question and try to make everybody look bad.

Roger: That you're showing up, holding them, not really holding them accountable, but you're holding yourself accountable to your craft.

Jen: I, I phrase it like this. I want to give people a platform to tell their stories. You could tell me the story of your life, your career, or you could tell me the story of that play, that game, that inning, that quarter, that drive, that catch, whatever it is.

So I just want to facilitate the conversation with you. You tell me the, your version of that story. Now we can agree or disagree as to whether You should have run this route or this route and whether it's your fault that you didn't catch it or it's the quarterback's fault, whatever, like we can disagree on that.

But what I want to do is give you the platform to share in your words what happens, which partly comes back to the questions I ask are very rarely on the fly. I can do that. They really want to be careful about how I ask a question so that I am phrasing it in the best possible way to facilitate an open conversation and make that answer easy and obvious for the person who is answering it.

Because when the answer is easy and obvious, now people can actually give you the real answer and they can be vulnerable. And yes, it's back to the relationship building and the trust, but it's also taking like I need to take the time and not just assume you're going to give me a good answer or that you're going to talk about something that you should be willing to talk about, right?

I need to create the space. To make that easy for you to talk about when I do that everybody wins now You might still choose to only give me a one word answer and that's okay But I have done my job and my work to give you that platform

Roger: Do you have like a framework or a way you think about how you ask questions?

Jen: It depends on how much time I have to do that But the general framework is and i've done this for a long time so I can do this very quickly I can do this in the ninth inning of the game when things change and you know That the outcome of the game goes The opposite of what I thought it was gonna do.

But the general idea is you start with the original question, and now I see where I can make one or two revisions that make it a stronger question. It actually get me to the answer that I need. The two things I'm considering are number one. I probably only have 90 seconds to do a full interview, which is about three questions.

So there's no preamble. These questions are not long questions because I need to give the athlete more time to talk than I am talking. That also means I can't just kind of stumble into the answer. I was hoping to get. I better nail the question right out of the gate to get maximum value and to get the actual answer.

So instead of making questions longer, I will tighten up those questions and I will change a word that that sparked something that's just a little bit different. So, um, instead of being something like what were you thinking? When you saw that pitch in the middle of the plate, right? It might turn into given the work you put in.

What was your confidence level? You could drive that pitch out of the park. Now we're having a slightly different. We didn't make it so far off the beaten path that they don't know what I'm talking about. But we did change their answer just a little bit. The other part of this is conventional wisdom.

There's a lot of well intentioned people that just give really bad advice. Number one, please stop asking random open ended questions, hoping not you, but hoping that you're going to get the answer that you want. That's not, that's not how this works, right? Open ended questions do not guarantee you great answers because what open ended questions do is create confusion.

Right? It is the difference between saying what happened in the seventh inning, which is a terrible question, right? Because I would hope the athlete comes back to me and says, do you want to know about the top of the seventh or the bottom of the seventh? You want to know about the pitching change? You want to know about the defense?

Do you want to know about the hit? Do you want to know about like who was warming up in the bullpen? Like, what do you want to know about the seventh inning versus how did you know you could steal second base with two outs? Right? And a lefty in the box. There's only one answer to that question, right?

There's only one answer. And the minute I realized that I have the answer to that question, now I can give you an answer. Nobody wants to look stupid. And so if you give people the widest breadth possible, hoping that you have just created this awesome scenario to have this great banter back and forth, they're going to be paralyzed with fear.

It is one of the reasons why We get the same response when we ask the question. How are you? Everybody gives the same answer, right? I've done this with corporate clients for 15 years. Everybody without a fail gives the same one or two word answers. And it's because we didn't give permission to people to give you the real answer.

So if you think about that in the context of asking questions, that's a really big step. And it's also understanding. Do you have an answer to the question that you were asking? Can you think through this conversation? I don't. I'm not putting words in your mouth, but can you answer the question? I might not know why you stole second base with two outs right in that situation of the game, but you do.

Okay. So after you tell me that, what makes sense to go to for the next part of that conversation? Can I play this back and forth so that everybody can relax and just know that we are having a conversation together?

Roger: And especially when you're asking an athlete about their craft and a key moment in the game, it's something, the way you're narrowing the question, it's also, you know, very applicable to what they're probably thinking of.

You know, a batter, you know, looking at a 90 mile per hour, you know, fastball down the middle of the plates, probably thinking not much, right?

Jen: Like your eyes get really big. You're like, this is it. This is my pitch. Right.

Roger: And they're being trained not to think, right. Cause the thoughts in the prefrontal cortex get in the way of those part of the motor skill brain, part of the brain.  So it's like, don't think.

Jen: Yeah,

Roger: But it's you know, what's the strategy they're thinking about stepping into that box and and you you know Because of the proximity and because you know the player and because you've built up that relationship You could probably phrase that question in a way that's really applicable to their state of mind Just like when we're walking down the hallway and see a a co worker and we ask them like hey, how you doing?

Like that's not in their context. They're not it's not what they're thinking about right? It's not something that's relevant to them in that moment So asking a different question and you know the how was your weekend kind of gets a little bit more but not you know It's like hey, I know you were going skiing this weekend.

Where'd you go? And how was it like the more specific? Yeah, I love that One of the lessons that I recently saw that you were sharing on youtube was the difference between being a rock star And being a superhero. Could you tell us a little bit about that? And I ask because a lot of, a lot of these episodes, I'm asking people about their superhero power.

And I think you convinced me to start asking people about their rockstar power. So tell me a little bit about the difference between a rockstar and a superhero.

Jen: That really came out of speaking to a lot of women's groups and organizations and audiences that were filled with women who really take pride in being, you know, a Wonder Woman type.

And I totally get it because. I have been that person over the course of my career, but what we're unintentionally telling ourselves is we need to come through and save the day kind of at the end of the day, and then you save the day. And what happens? By the time everybody figures out that the superhero saved the day, the superhero is already gone doing the next thing.

They never actually get paid for it. They never really get attention for it. So if you put yourself in that role and you were the superhero who was forced to dig deep and rely on everything that you've got to come in and save the day, it's only gonna feel good for so long because you are exhausted.

You're now taking on this huge Herculean task and You're not getting the recognition or the reward for it. And I'm not saying that you need to do everything for recognition. But part of what happens when you don't feel worthy or when you don't feel like you have anything to contribute or when you don't know how to advocate for yourself, right?

The more you keep doing this in a business setting and you keep coming through and you save the day for your team. That's great. But is that the healthiest way for you to look at that versus a rock star who before they even get on stage? I mean, I saw Pearl Jam earlier this year, right? You could feel the electricity.

People started clapping during soundcheck. The band takes the stage. They haven't even played a song. Anything, and you are clapping for that rockstar. And it's not because they're reinventing the wheel or going outside themselves. They are relying on the skills and the song list and the set list that they have built over years.

Now, the trick with a rockstar is. Pearl Jam has been performing that same music for how many years? 30 years? 25 years? They still come out with the same consistency and energy level as they did 30 years ago, which is why we still cheer for them. It is within their skill set. They are just building on what they know they can do.

And so it's not wrong to have a superhero power. We all have them. It's when we think we have to be superheroes instead of just being the rock star who shows up, who is consistent, who people can count on, who we cheer for. And then after that rock star is done, guess what? We still stand and we applaud and we cheer them.

And oh, by the way, they get paid very, very handsome way to do that. So I fall into that camp more than the superhero who flies away and who knows when you're going to see him again.

Roger: So your rock star power is helping people own their own voice. And I'm very curious what inspired or who inspired you to have this rock star power.

Jen: I think it is again, all of the experiences, you know, I had to talk my way in the rooms. And then when I got into rooms. I was typically the only female in the room for the first 20 plus years of my career. When I first started traveling with the Seahawks, I was the only female that traveled on the plane.

I was frequently the only female in the locker room and we don't have the option in my job. You don't have the option to just say, I'm not feeling it today. I'll come back and do it tomorrow, right? Like you better figure out how to get yourself psyched up and in the right frame of mind to have these conversations.

I also felt a huge, um, I don't know. Pressure was the right word. But early in my career, you kind of knew you only got one shot. And if you screwed it up, they weren't going to give the female another chance, right? You would have already blown it. And so it really came out of necessity and trying to figure out how I could be heard in a room that may or may not want to hear me.

And now recognizing where I thought it. We were all kind of in this together, like women and, and it's not just for women, but I kind of all thought, oh, well you just, the, the more experience you get, the further you get in your career, like you just naturally become more confident in doing all of these things.

And I realized that's not true for everybody else. And sometimes they need somebody to shine the light on them. And these easy ways. To communicate more effectively to advocate for yourself. Um, to be assertive that gives them enough confidence to actually share more about who they are, what they bring to the table, what their value is.

Um, it allows them to strengthen relationships, get promotions, get raises. It's, um, it all comes down to being able to use your voice and finding them.

Roger: We talked a little bit earlier about P. Carol. And the article you wrote about the leadership lessons that you learned from being able to watch him and be in the room with him, be on the sidelines with him.

What are like one or two things you learned from Coach P. Carroll that has influenced your rock star power of helping people own their voice?

Jen: One of the biggest things was, you know, you and I were talking about a little bit, um, his catchphrases and the way that he communicated and how we gave press conferences and kind of his mantras and, you know, the themes and all of this.

And I know that some people look at it and they didn't think that it had much meaning or value behind it, right? Like, how many times could you say every game is a championship opportunity and truly mean it? Right? Like it just sounds like you were putting off the question. I would say that Pete is one of, if not the best at being disciplined with the message.

We might have gotten tired of hearing it. Pete might have gotten tired of saying it, but just like the rock stars who show up with the enthusiasm and they do it consistently, Pete never strayed from the message. And what I took away from that is this. There are so many times where it doesn't matter if I've written a book or published article or I've done something cool.

I get tired of talking about it, right? We all do this. Like we do something and you know, we think everybody has got the message down because we are tired of saying it and you can't get tired of saying it. If you're going to be the leader. You can't ever get tired of saying the message. I'm not saying that that message doesn't eventually get old or that there isn't need for change as kind of is what happened, right?

You weren't getting the same results from the messaging at the end of his tenure as you were from the beginning. Doesn't make it a bad message. But he was very consistent. So it was the consistency in the messaging. The other thing I took away from Pete is the fact that every NFL team approaches practice differently because of Pete Carroll.

Pete Carroll brought a very much like college mindset and our practices. We're jumping man. I mean, the music was playing so loud. They had earplugs available for us at the indoor practice facility because that's how loud it was now. Presumably this also helps when it's going to be really loud on game day.

But you know, he didn't mind if guys were dancing. He didn't mind if you had fun as long as you did your work. Pete reinvented the wheel by simply playing music at practice. And now fun is something that we can see as part of leadership and sports because prior to that, and you know this from coaching or from playing sports, all of my coaches growing up old school.

Like you didn't laugh. You didn't smile during practice. You didn't do anything outside of like focus on the drill and it's like this is you should be having fun. If you are not having fun, then you are not doing this right. And I think what he did across the NFL and for those of us who followed him or for those of us who For people who heard him give leadership talks, I think he opened up fun as a leadership characteristic.

Roger: A pillar of, you know, high performance, a pillar of enjoying life, a pillar of achieving one's potential is joy. And joy is a little different than fun. Yeah. Joy. I mean, fun feels like it could be somewhat temporary, but showing up with joy in your heart and sharing that with others. And that's something that Pete does.

And that's something that you do. Every time you're having conversations, you're bringing a very positive energy, even if it's holding, you know, having those difficult interviews at the end, you're coming in with that, um, that positive energy. You hear it in your voice. You see it in your face. And so I'm curious about where and how does joy show up in your rockstar power of helping others find their voice.

Jen: I think it is truly just loving people and knowing that that connection is what makes it worthwhile. I love talking sports, like I love watching sports and talking sports, but what makes my job worthwhile is the people and it's getting to know them and it's understanding what that opportunity meant for them.

If I'm on stage and I'm talking to an audience, it's being able to see the aha moment when they go, Oh, I can do this. Right? Like this doesn't have to be so hard. Oh, I just needed a new way of thinking about this. It really is the connection with people. And I will tell you that early in my career, and I journaled about this a lot, I would not consider myself an empath, which is a, that's a personality type.

I would characterize myself as somebody who has a tender heart towards people. And when I first got into the industry, that was not. applauded or encouraged, right? Because I'm a female working in a male dominated environment. So what I was told to do was, you know, your best bet at succeeding is to act as close to a man as you can and not ever be noticed in there.

Because if somebody notices that you're a woman and that you do things differently, there's a greater likelihood they're going to single you out and they're going to find a way to get you up there. Right. And so you almost had to be very callous. At the beginning. And the further I got into my career, the more I realized I didn't have to do that.

You also get some credibility and some respect that makes it easier to actually be who you are and to care about people. But once I allowed myself to just be authentic and to care about the people that I work with as human beings, then you start to see the real conversations in the real relationships.

And then it becomes really gratifying because I will forget it. Every single score and stat. I cannot remember specific plays. I do not remember scores. I do remember conversations with people and I remember conversations where they let their guard down or where they gave me a hug or where they swore they were never going to do this postgame interview and then they did one with a smile on their face.

Like that's what I remember more than any of the highlights that you would ever see on TV.

Roger: I love how you amplify the stories of others and you amplify the people you interview and in those keynote speeches and the lessons that you give in, in your prolific YouTube catalog, um, that sense of accountability, vulnerability, joy, and love.

Comes through and, you know, in the office, you know, we're actually probably discouraged from using the word love for, for many different reasons, but, but love, like the, the strength of a leader can be measured and how much they are connected with and care for their people. And we can talk about it as care, but it's love.

And I know that's something that Pete talks about, um, and it's, it's part of being connected to people and recognizing them as human for everything that is. And I would imagine these very young adults who are in high risk, um, you know, dangerous sports and with very short 10 years, um, the fact that someone's recognizing for who they are as a human first, more so than an athlete is really powerful.

Jen: And that's one of my favorite parts of the job. Yes.

Roger: How is your rockstar power of helping people own their voice connected with your purpose?

Jen: Those of us who have microphones, it looks like we have either all the power, all the platform to do things. And it just seems like you have to have a microphone to have your voice heard or to use your voice.

And that's not true. Everybody has a story. Everybody has a voice. And that is really the, I am excellent at creating content and I am excellent at giving you tools to tell your story. And whether you want to call it a legacy or, um, whether you just want to say, this is the reason that I started a business and that I do what I do.

Again, I love talking about sports, but at the end of the day, It's not the sport that you are going to be connected to. It's the people you're going to be connected to. And it's not the sport that you are going to be connected to. It's the people you're going to be connected to. And at the end of the day, if I can give you one or two ways to communicate more effectively with the people that you are around every day, whether it's your spouse, your friends, your colleagues, your boss, your team, then I've done my job to share all the things.

that empower you to do what you are supposed to do in the world. Because this is what I am here for. I am the person who got talks too much on every single report card, but I wasn't talking just to hear myself talk, right? But if that's my skill, then let me help you make this a tool that you can lean on to.

Roger: What do you know to be true? About helping others own their voice

Jen: that it happens in small ways, and people keep looking for the big ways. They wait for that big presentation or the promotion or that job interview. And all of that's awesome. But before you get there, There's so many ways to practice in small moments.

Everything from not using the app to order your coffee and to being able to order from the barista themselves. That's a small step towards owning your voice. You don't think about it, but you could go an entire day without actually talking to somebody that you don't know. And that skill Not being afraid to talk to somebody you don't know is hugely important when you go into those big moments.

And so what I know to be true is there's a lot of different ways to practice the skills that you need. In those 15 to 30 second increments during the course of the day, we overlook them all the time or frequently, but there's ways to practice that so that you can build this skill set without putting yourself out there in such a big way with so much pressure on yourself and so much anxiety and so much stress and then thinking that this is, you know, the do or die moment.

It doesn't have to be do or die. There's ways to practice before that.

Roger: I love that. Yeah, if you're going to get your 10, 000 hours or your 10, 000 reps, it doesn't have to always be in the crucible of that moment. It could be everything leading up to and afterwards. Yeah. What did you believe early on about your rock star power?

That you've come to learn is not true.

Jen: I believed I needed to be quieter. I believed I needed to take up less space. I believe that I needed to stand in the corner and not say anything and to not be seen or heard because that's what I was told. And to be fair, the folks who gave me that advice, if we want to call it that, didn't know what else to say.

It was 25 years ago and there weren't that many women doing sports. So they did the best they could with what they knew to be true. Would I Spent a lot of time doing was waiting for somebody to give me permission to talk because I assumed that if you told me to stand in the corner and not say anything and not draw attention to myself at some point, you would then come back around and say, okay, you have done enough.

Now you can be the person who steps in front and does these things. And nobody came back around to give me permission. So I thought I needed permission. I thought I needed to be quiet. I thought I needed to play small. And I know that all of that is untrue and that it's the opposite.

Roger: Was there a moment that you realized that was untrue or was it a series of moments?

Jen: I think it was a series of moments and recognizing that nobody, I don't want to say was going to come to my defense. That's not true. But I think it's realizing that nobody is or ever will be as invested in my success as I am. Right. I can tell you where I want to go. And I can tell you that when I started as a producer behind the scenes, I could tell you that what I wanted to do was end up on camera.

And people would say, yeah, okay. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, sure. Whatever we can do to help. But what it actually took was me putting together my own demo reels. It was me like taking the action and asking if you could shoot a stand up for me. It was me saying, okay, if I do this, would you listen to the voiceover that I just recorded?

It was me saying it was me forcing the issue the entire way. And once you start doing that and you get a response and you go, okay, so this is actually kind of the way that you have to do it. To do this, like I had to be the one that figured out how to advocate for myself and do that in small, consistent ways over the course of several years, to be quite honest, that, um, That really highlighted that point.

Roger: That sense of agency, that courage to step into the light, to step in front of the camera. Do you, was there a role model that, that helped you, you know, you saw that in someone else and then you said, okay, this is, this is the path for me. Or was it more just internal monologue of like, okay, this isn't working.

I need to do something different.

Jen: It wasn't so much that it wasn't working, and I would never go back and change anything about my career. I knew that I wanted to try to be on camera when I was in college. Like, that's what I thought I was going to be skilled at. The first job that I was offered was behind the scenes as an associate sports producer, and I thought, you know what, let's make sure that there's a plan in place where I have, you know, a paycheck and benefits, and I will figure the rest out.

You know, at least I'm in the industry, at least I'm working in sports. a chance to build my resume. I always had my sights set on being on camera. What I didn't anticipate was falling in love with producing, um, and loving that content piece and being able to put it together and having your hands in so many things.

It's actually led me to create two shows on my own that I'm the executive producer and show runner on. But that part I loved. What I wanted was the challenge of being on TV, right? And so I just had to figure it out. And then I had great mentors that were willing to help me. But, um, yeah, that was something that I had my eye on from the moment I, I went to school for broadcasting.

Roger: It makes a lot of sense why, like, I, When I ran into you at Starbucks, there you are. You're you're editing away. You're producing that next video. You're you're doing all the things that all lead up to helping other people own their voice to your rockstar power. But there's many, many ways to do that. And you're getting better in all those ways.

Jen: Yeah. I would also say this to people, um, because they always ask, well, um, are you doing exactly what you thought you would be doing? The answer is no. I, my dream job was to work in sports anywhere in the country. Didn't care. Uh, I, I didn't care. Just let me work in sports. The thought of working for a regional sports network and an NFL team never crossed my mind.

The thought of being an NFL sideline, like that wasn't even anything on my radar. So for folks out there who are trying to identify like their dream job. It might not exist yet. And that's okay. Like just keep using your skills and finding ways to, you know, to assert yourself so that you can create what works for you.

Roger: Okay, Jen, are you ready for the lightning round?

Jen: Okay, I am not great at speaking in short bursts or one word. So let's see what I do on this one. You're really going to put me to the test, I think.

Roger: There's, there's a long history of guests. Not giving short answers to the lightning round. So you're, you're in good company, fill in the blank, helping people own their voice is satisfying who in your life helps you with helping you find your voice.

Jen: I have a couple of dear friends, one of whom is Shannon Dreher on the. Mariner's radio broadcast, who can more, I think better than anybody else, hold up a mirror and tell me where I'm not seeing, um, my skills and helping me, uh, fit pieces together.

Roger: Is there a practice or routine that helps you grow, nurture, renew your ability to help others own their voice?

I have gotten very

Jen: into journaling and daily meditation over the last two to three years. And so that helps me. With kind of where I'm at. I also force myself to do a weekly Instagram video on Fridays that is messaged to folks around gaining confidence, trusting themselves, using their voice. And um, the feedback on that is really helpful and again, kind of keeps me going and figuring out what people need to hear.

Roger: What is your walkup song? Well,

Jen: I used to say that it was going to be a CDC's you shook me because I just love the beginning of that song. However, if I am giving a keynote speech, I have now decided that the walkup song should be ice ice baby, which happens to be one of my favorite songs from that era.

But the first few words of that song, stop, collaborate, and listen.

Roger: That could be the whole keynote speech right there, right? There you go.

Jen: Well, now if that, if it allows me to play Ice Ice Baby everywhere I go, then that might be what I'm known for. Yes.

Roger: What is, or was, the most inspiring moment from sports that you've witnessed?

Jen: Picking one that everybody knows, uh, it would be Felix Hernandez's perfect game. There's a back story on that one. Um, but from the just kind of overall, like what it takes to do that and how long he had been building towards that. And it's a total team effort. Um, that was, that was one of the coolest things that I have ever seen.

Um, and that was a long time coming. So it's inspiring when you get a chance to see that payoff.

Roger: Yeah. And, and, you know, he gets all the accolades and fame for it, but you're right. It's a team effort to get there.

Jen: It's a team effort. I will also share that he and I had had a falling out in spring training earlier that year.

And we had patched things up like by April, but I had this like nagging feeling. I'm like, man, what if, what if we didn't patch it up to the degree that I thought, like, what if he does really something, you know, so cool, like he throws a no hitter and then he won't talk to me after the game. And then. He throws the perfect game and I was the first person to interview him.

And he, like, we, we both knew what that moment was and that was, um, it was a very special moment that I just was kind of a, a full circle capper on, uh, on that relationship. So,

Roger: yeah. Hmm. I got some dust in my eye on that one. That's very, really sweet. What is your favorite sports movie?

Jen: I have so many silly ones. Um. It depends on the season. Major League is tough to top. Varsity Blues, tough to top for football. Who doesn't love Tin Cup and Caddyshack? I mean, I'd probably say Major League.

Roger: What is one thing that gets in your way of helping others own their

Jen: voice? I mean, I think the obvious answer is myself, right?

Just last week. I'm like, what am I doing? Nobody wants to hear me like what? Who am I to think that I am the person who has these answers? There's any number of other people that they could be going to and asking advice from. So, yeah, I think it's mostly just me that gets in the way of myself. And every once in a while, I think.

And my darling colleague to come out and say, Nope, that's not how this works. So

Roger: yeah, darling colleague, is that what you refer to as your saboteur? No, that

Jen: was no, that's what I needed Shannon to come in and get me out of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Roger: I was going to ask, what do you, what do you do when the saboteur starts speaking to you like that?

Jen: Um, I will sit down and write, write out what I am, what I have been successful at, or where my wins were that day. It does not solve the problem in that moment, but it does help me get into a better headspace. Right. And, you know, just like having a hello is a win. You know, you start looking back on all those things and it's pretty easy to get to a list of 10 things that you want at that day, which can, like, put you in motion in the right direction.

Roger: So good. An earlier guest, uh, Corinna Calhoun, talks about rewriting inner narratives. And she says if you have that story in your head that's not working for you, find the evidence that's not true. So, yeah. And then rewrite the story that you want to be telling, and then find evidence that it is true. And you're, you're doing it.

Yeah. Yeah. What word or phrase describes what helping others find their voice feels like when it's had a positive impact?

Jen: It is joyous. Like there's this feeling that just kind of bubbles up in your heart, right? It's almost like these little sparkles. You can feel it like you know, whether it's in the corner of your eyes or it's just like this warmth and you're like, okay, like I did something that day.

I always joke. I am the person that entertains the world, right? Doctors and and other people save the world. I'm just the person that entertains the world, which is great as a sports broadcaster. People need that. But when I see evidence that something that I have presented Actually leads to positive. You know, experiences or outcomes for other people.

It is just that warmth. Like, I just want to say, it's like when the Grinch's small heart grows three sizes, but I don't think I have a small heart. It's just like that expansion and that warmth, um, of knowing that you did something that helped. Yeah.

Roger: If a listener wanted to ask you a question or follow you, where do you want to point them to?

The

Jen: website is TalkSportyToMe. com and that's generally where you can find me on All of the social platforms. So the videos on YouTube, um, LinkedIn, you can email me, Jen at talk sporty to me. com. If there's a specific question, but yeah, you can, you can find me all over the place using that handle.

Roger: Thank you.

for sharing your rockstar power with us and talking about how it applies and how you show up with joy and love and the lessons of, you know, recognizing people as human beings and recognizing what they're doing to contribute. And then, uh, Being able to hold yourself and them accountable In very productive and positive ways because you've built up that relationship There's so much that goes on that we don't get to see When the camera is on and I really appreciate you sharing that with us today.

Thank you very much Well, thank you for giving me

Jen: a platform to talk about what I do. I appreciate it

Roger: Oh, my pleasure. Okay. Take care.

Thank you all for being in this conversation with us. And thank you, Jen, for sharing your superpower of empowering others to own their own voice. The question I'm asking myself after this conversation is, where can I be more intentional about the questions I ask in those 30 to 60 second interactions I have in the workplace?

What do you know to be true is a three blue pens production and I'm your host Roger Kastner We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people To discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you may be on go to native hyphen lands dot ca Okay, be well my friends, and Go Hawks! Let's go Kraken!