How to be a better listener | Art of Listening with Nicholas Whitaker | True Snacks

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Nicholas: And I think that's where people really get tripped up quite a bit is like they're maybe approaching listening from an extractive standpoint. Actually, just to go back to what we were talking about before.

They're trying to pull out the nuggets of information that will help prove their point or help give them the opportunity to ask that next question. What they're not really doing is trying to connect with people on like a fundamental and deep level. And I think to me, it's like, if you're going to spend an hour of your life with somebody, or if you're going to spend any amount of time with somebody, why would you want to do that in a half assed way?

Like, why would you want to do that in a way that has an agenda? It kind of defeats the entire purpose of connecting with people in the first place. You might as well just talk to yourself in the mirror, record yourself. So for me, like listening is really about connecting. And connecting is really about vulnerability and being open to other people's experiences so that you can be more in accord with your own experience.

Roger: I think the younger Roger would have heard that with the idea of trying to figure out how to argue against that. Whereas maybe the, the, the more recent Roger is, is regretting the years I wasn't thinking that way. That this isn't, you're not, people talk about sometimes you listen when you're really just waiting to, to talk.

I think I've spent a lot of time listening with the idea of coming up with, okay, what's, how do I, how do I land my argument? How do I convince this person to, to agree with my point of view and not how do I connect with this person? And, and I think there's some, you know, some reasons for that in my past and it's connected to an unmet need that I had that helped me find my, you know, my superhero power, which is, I think, part of that's being expressed in these conversations and why.

This podcast and be becoming a coach and doing the work that I do in organizations is so fulfilling because I'm getting to express and getting to attend to maybe that unmet need and filling it with not connections is where it's at. That's, that's where the good stuff is. And being present in that moment and not trying to convince people of something, but trying to understand where they're at.

So maybe you could learn something about where you're at.

Nicholas: Yeah, that's exactly it. You know, so, so much of this to me is arriving to what is, you know, I got Ram Dass sitting here behind me, you know, the whole idea is like, you know, arriving to what's happening in the moment, life is already happening. Like there's nothing that we need to do.

Right. Other than just be present and aware of what's actually occurring. And when you're talking about engaging with other people, I think the real gift and the opportunity of language and being able to express and being able to even hear and communicate in the ways that we are. It's a unique thing.

Nothing else on the planet is able to do this. The gift there is being able to come together and arrive to what's actually happening, both for yourself and for the other person. And that I think is what then becomes what we call collective effervescence, right? It's like when you bring things together, the, the, the beauty and the magic that kind of bubbles up from that engagement and that interaction that doesn't occur if you're arriving from a closed standpoint, or if you're coming from it with an agenda of some sort.

You don't get that real generative experience with other people. And my guess is, and I hate to blame social media because everybody blames social media for everything. But my guess is, is so much of the world these days is about this transactional late nature. I can just swipe to the next person. I can just go to the next video.

Something new will be fed to me. Um, And I think there's this expectation of immediacy and there's this expectation of like, what am I getting from this situation, which I think is antithetical to the way that we actually operate as human beings. We are by nature, community oriented and collaborative individuals.

And if you can really think about like, well, what are the inherent. Qualities and, uh, nature that we can bring to bring to the forefront when engaging with somebody else. Well, then it becomes really much. I think a simpler equation. If people are like, well, I don't know how to deal with this meeting. It was this difficult conversation that I have to show up to next.

Well, if you can just show up with curiosity and with compassion and listen. It opens the doors to so much possibility that just simply would not be available. Otherwise.

Roger: I love that you brought up social media because it's that, that dopamine hit we get from that reading that next tweet or looking at that next video, whereas like, have you tried dopamine?

in the interaction you get with someone else. Like when you connect with the heart and the head with someone else, have you tried that dopamine hit? That's really good, man. I think there's something, um, you know, more powerful than what we get from social media. Yet we know social media can be more predictive in delivering that, that.

That dopamine hit than what we can get from other people.

Nicholas: Um, yeah, and my, guess here too, is it, it's not just dopamine, right. And you know, I'm not a neurobiologist and like my knowledge set on this is a little bit limited, but like, you know, neuroepinephrine, uh, oxytocin, that feel good feeling that we get when we're actually connecting with somebody else in a meaningful way, like that, that hug feeling that we get, like, that's what I'm going for, like, and that lasts a hell of a lot longer than dopamine ever will.

Like that's the problem with dopamine is like, you're always trying to replenish it or re refactor it by new experiences. There's that seeking experience, which I think is again, inherently built into how we are as humans. Like as hunter gatherers out there in the wild, like that served us really, really well.

Right. It allowed us to figure out like, you know, okay, what is the nutrient source that I can take and keep me going for the next thing? Like if I have to chase after an animal or something like that, like that powered that type of experience. But when you come back home to the cave or to the village, That dopamine isn't really what's really going to drive you.

It's the, it's the other neurobiological chemicals that are happening with our experience that helps make us feel a sense of belonging and connection with other people or connection with ourselves. And that's really what I try to encourage for folks is like, yeah, chase your dopamine all you want.

That's a, that's a. A singular experience, but if you're what you're really trying to do is build community and draw connection with other people. If you're trying to solve for that loneliness epidemic that we're experiencing that requires actual presence with other people and letting your guard down and being vulnerable and sharing in meaningful ways.

Roger: Yeah, I really appreciate that correction because you're right. It's not, it's not just that moment of connection. It's really being in community and being relationship that has a lot more long term and a stronger feeling for sure. So what or who inspired you to have the superhero power of the art of listening?

Nicholas: That's a good question. I mean, It's funny because when you threw this up in the, in the emails before the call, I was trying to track back and think about like, well, where does this actually originate from, you know, I think for me, it probably was born out of extreme social anxiety and discomfort growing up.

I grew up in a pretty abusive environment. Uh, I was not like the other kids that I grew up with for multiple different reasons, and I never really quite felt like I fit in, uh, in those environments that I was in and now looking back on it, it's like it's pretty obvious what was going on and why those things were occurring.

But I think what it, it, it. Created for me was a deep curiosity in human psychology and how people function and work because I noticed that so many people around me kind of operated differently. Like my brain is wired differently than a lot of people, like they call it neurodiversity these days. But back then, you know, when I was in my teens, like there wasn't language around this.

There was, you know, ADD, maybe they talked about that a little bit, but that was about the extent of it. Um, so for me, I think it was, it was born out of a need to try to better understand the world around me. So like listening became my default as opposed to like speaking. I was a little bit of a shy kid for the largest part of my childhood.

And a lot of the time when I actually spent doing was just listening and observing how other quote unquote normal people behaved so that I could mirror or mimic that. So I could have a fighting chance of. Seemingly being normal, normal, that led to early, uh, exposure to like things like documentary film.

I remember when I was in middle school, like I shot my first documentary film. I can't remember what the actual event was, but it was on racism. And this was in central Pennsylvania. And I was interviewing kids in the library of our middle school, talking about their experiences with race and othering.

And I remember. Like having this, you know, VHS tape deck camera, uh, and looking at people through the, the, the little viewfinder and having these conversations with folks and realizing that through powerful questions and by really holding space for somebody's story and narrative, it creates this sense of connection that you just don't get in normal everyday life.

And I think for me, that was a bit of the aha moment. And ever since then, it was essentially like one thing after another, leading me to opportunities to hold space and to, to, to cultivate listening. Um, After I was no longer quite as awkward and quite as introverted as I was when I was a kid, then it kind of turned into this other thing where, you know, I could hold space for people that were dealing with a difficult traumatic event.

I could have a business meeting with somebody and really deeply understand like what their pain points were and what they were trying to solve for so that me as a consultant, I could kind of wedge myself in there and offer some sort of a solution. Uh, later on now as a consultant. Coach and as a facilitator for mindfulness, obviously it helps quite a bit.

But yeah, I think it, I think it was born out of almost a deficit of a sense of belonging and connection with others. And it was cultivated as a way to try to learn how to be with others and be in community with others.

Roger: Thank you for sharing that. The, the, the streak of vulnerability is, uh, is, is continued there in that story.

So thank you for sharing that. And it, it, it makes a lot of sense. I, um, um, and thinking about my own, my own path and my own, um, experience with not feeling worthy, Um, I, for me it was a, it is a different direction. Like I was trying to get attention. Mm-Hmm. and so I would do things that would get me attention.

Um, but that was probably because I was, um, not getting the attention that I wanted. Whereas I could see in, in your situation, you might not want that attention that was gonna become an at you if you, if you, you've talked more than you listened.

Nicholas: Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And I learned early on that it was much safer to be quiet and to ask questions and to offer ideas or to offer suggestions.

Now, obviously, as I got older, I realized that there's an immense amount of value in being able to express yourself fully and completely. But, you know, from those early fundamental stages, I think that's really what cultivated that superpower that then kind of attached to this hypervigilance, uh, that was not great, but I think it has also served me pretty well as I've gotten older.

It was designed at that time to kind of keep me safe and always kind of looking out for warning signals or like gestures or, you know, different tells that somebody might have that might indicate danger or lack of safety, uh, or to try to read between the lines of what somebody was saying. Cause a lot of times the messages that I was getting were quite mixed in my household.

But as I got older, I was able to really utilize that and hone that and almost cultivate more of an intuition around like, well, what's the opportunity to ask the powerful question, what's the opportunity to like encourage somebody to share in a meaningful way to really get at the bottom of what's going on for somebody.

Roger: So in case you were happen to be talking to someone who probably talked more than they listened and have those, you know, certain muscles that are well developed and need to develop other muscles, maybe named Roger. Um, do you have a framework or a process that you follow when you're using your superhero power of the art of listening?

Nicholas: Good question. Um, probably though. I think it's more intuitive at this point. You know, I think it does go back to this idea of arriving with curiosity and compassion, you know, both for myself and the other person so much of what I'm doing even in this call right now. You know, not being self aware in the sense of like, Oh, let me be careful about what I say, or let me like, be careful to frame this in just a certain way.

But just even just noticing what's happening in my experience in the moment, you know, so like, as I'm sitting here right now, I noticed that I'm actually feeling pretty relaxed. You know, the heart rate isn't racing like it normally would be if I was trying to be a certain way. Um, you know, I feel like.

I've been able to cultivate this process of just grounding and arriving to what is first before then sharing or engaging with somebody else. Um, for other people that maybe don't have that process, I think, you know, at first, before you even get into the conversation, having an intention for how you want to be, not what you want to get out of that conversation necessarily, but how you want to be, I think is really important.

I ran into this actually just yesterday. I had a very difficult conversation with a colleague. And I even started the conversation by saying, I have no agenda. I have not made a decision on anything. I'm arriving here with curiosity and compassion, and I just want to create a space where we can explore what comes next.

And I think setting that intention, being really clear about. You know, what is important and what would success look like in this experience together, I think, is a great place for somebody to start. And even just speaking that out loud, I think, can disarm somebody and can create a little bit more of a connection because the person on the other end of that conversation is likely having a, a, What, what's this conversation going to be?

Am I in trouble? Like what's the repercussions that are going to happen after this conversation. So if you can arrive to that conversation with a sense of curiosity and compassion and vulnerability, it just allows everybody to kind of get on the same page a lot quicker from there. You know, I think. I am always looking at the impulses that I have to try to fix or to solve or to offer wisdom of some sort.

And I think through my coach training that I've done over the years, what I've learned is that holding space is way more valuable than asking questions or offering advice. And as a fully admitted man in America, like the way I was taught Trained was to fix things. You know, we're, we're out there to try to solve problems.

And I've learned from my wife and from other people in my life, that really the more important thing is to allow people to be heard, not to try to fix their problems. So if you can start there of like, have I given somebody the space to be heard? Have I really, truly heard what they're saying? And can I reflect that back to them in a way that resonates with them?

That's going to go a lot farther than any bits of wisdom or any advice that you're going to be able to give somebody. So that would be another principle that I would really root on. And then I think the other piece to it, I think, is compassion, both for yourself and for other people. Like, I say random stuff all the time that I wish I didn't say.

You know, and like, Offering myself compassion in that moment and understanding that like, okay, there was probably something internally that wasn't really being addressed that drove me to say that thing. Uh, or maybe I didn't pause long enough just to like gather my thoughts so that I can express myself and articulate myself in a way that I really would like to.

I mean, that's, that's easier said than done. That takes a lot of practice. And I think that itself is a superpower of just being able to pause as Victor Frankl is often misquoted as saying, you know, it's, it's that gap between stimulus and response is where we find our freedom. So really trying to expand that gap a little bit, not just for yourself, but for other people.

So that you can have the ability to be free in that moment, I think is like a really fundamental part of what I would consider to be a superpower around listening.