Crafting Your Space and Managing Your Stuff with Nicole Kincaid

WDYKTBT 28 – TRANSCRIPTS - Stuffology with Nicole Kincaid

Nicole: Because what I have noticed around this whole subject is that people always try and create the systems first without doing the editing first. And that's a really big, um, thing too, that I, that I discussed with clients right away is that. You can't create the systems before you've gone through the stuff and the going through.

And, but we, because we'd rather create, like we want to go get the shiny stuff and like create the systems and put things away. But you can't, you can't do it that way because you don't know what you have. You have to ask different questions to really help people set up their environments in ways that.

Match who they are and how they operate in the world and the Stuffology process gets you there like it gets you headed in that direction So you're not creating things based on you know a system that some guy in Dubai created, you know And then we have so much self judgment Because we think that we don't know how to do it because our places are you know, quote a mess that we just think oh They know well, no, you know, you know You just need to get a little bit of information around how to ask yourself the right questions.

Roger: Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the What Do You Know To Be True podcast. In these conversations, I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill, their superhero power, and the meaningful impact it has on others. The goal is not to emulate or hack our way to a new talent, you. Instead, the intention is to learn more about their experiences with their superhero powers.

And in doing so, maybe we can learn something about the special talent in each of us that makes us unique and helps us find our path to purpose. This conversation is with Nicole Kincaid and her superhero power of Stuffology. That's right. Stuffology , the science of our relationship with our stuff and how we can make conscious decisions about whether or not Our stuff serves us as we originally intended.

This isn't about getting rid of stuff. It's about what does our stuff do or do not do for us. If you're ready. Let's dive in.

Hi, Nicole. It's great to see you. Thank you for joining me today.

Nicole: Hey Roger. It's great to see you, too Thanks so much for having me on your podcast. I'm very grateful.

Roger: Mmm. It's my pleasure I'm real excited to be here with you to talk about your superhero power of Stuffology Could you give us a 60 second introduction to who you are and what you do?

Nicole: Sure. Okay. So my name is Nicole Kincaid and I do this work in the world. I would say that my work generally all falls under the, um, energy work umbrella and under that umbrella are two different things. And one of them is this work I do called, uh, space clearing. And, uh, it's the work that I do in the world where I go and.

work with things in homes that we can't see with our eyes or definitely feeling on some level. And the other work that I do is this work that I call, I started calling Stuffology about 25 years ago or so. And that's where I work with people. And there's stuff and, um, literally, so I call it, it's kind of like two sides of a coin.

And, uh, one side of the coin is the, it's the space clearing piece and that's the stuff you can't see. And then, um, the other side of the coin is topology and that's working with the stuff you can see. So that's what I do out in the world.

Roger: Hmm. And, and it was about a year ago. When you came highly recommended, um, and you came to our place to do the, the space clearing, the, uh, space, I want to say space cleansing, but that doesn't sound about right.

It is energy clearing in, in our space and our house, a hundred year house, 20 of those years. Um, we've been bringing energy into it, but there's 80 years of other people. People's energy and it's all bottled up into this tiny little space.

Yeah. And, and I, I have to admit, I don't know how it works, but I'm convinced it does work like every part of the house that you worked on feels different and our relationship with that space, some, some in one room or two, the relationship might've changed totally in other places.

It just feels lighter.

Nicole: Yeah.

Roger: And I believe you've, you've worked with about half of the book club that I'm a part of, um, to do energy clearing and, and they'll all say the same things in different, different ways and different, you know, the relationship with their space and how it's changed. So, um, a little while ago I reached out to you because I wanted to talk about that.

Your superhero power there. But when we were talking about it, you blew my mind when you were telling me about Stuffology . So that's, I'm really excited that you want to talk about that today. Can you tell us a little bit more about what is Stuffology  and what is the goodness that it brings to people?

Nicole: Yes. I always want to talk about stuff. So it's not surprising to me that I would like happened to like, um, like. Get in with you on that conversation. We spoke, but Stuffology is what I call my unique version of clutter clearing and organization. And I definitely depart from the traditional mode modalities of clutter clearing and organizing.

I started doing this work with people with clients when I was about 18 or 19 years old. But I would say that my work and my relationship to stuff. Like evolved way before then, even as, as a child, basically. And, um, it was a way that I learned how to soothe myself and calm my nervous system and feel safe in the world, um, by tinkering and fiddling and organizing with my body.

My things. Um, I wasn't in a family that had a lot of stability. Like there was, it was a very, one might say chaotic environment. I moved around a lot, went to 13 elementary schools and four junior highs. And I found this, um, saw this, this way of just working with my things. Um, That was very meditative, and it was very soothing and that gate like connected me into this perspective of like, you know what, everything's going to be okay.

But I also have this very, very, very strong DNA around just, you know, You know flat out organizing. I just like to have things in order I like when I go to the grocery store and you know, all the bananas are all lined up and all the You know, everything looks all like woo, you know like that just looks very calming for me You know like that little game you play when you're a kid where you have to match up the two cards, you know That is like me 101 and so when I was uh, You know, 19 years old or so, 18 or 19, I started working with clients, but the traditional route of telling people like what to do with how to organize their spaces, even though I'm kind of a genius when it comes to that, but like, I wasn't, when it came to clients, Roger, I wasn't like, because what evolved for me much later on was this sense of like, Who are they in their space?

Like, what do their things mean to them? Like what, like, what are all these breadcrumbs of like all the stuff around us that we have in our environments that got there for, because of us, you know, like there are things like, what does it really And what is it about our past is about our present is about our future.

No judgment around all of that. It was the tinkering around all that inquiry and curiosity where, when I started then working with clients again with their staff, the conversation completely changed. The work completely changed. I call it a twofer because you literally get like this, you know, external environment that looks very, very different, you know, because you, you get to, you get to organize, but you also have often a very deep personal transformation that occurs like a release of energy, like in a release of motion of emotion by being seen by yourself, to yourself, through your things and through your stuff.

It's really amazing work.

Roger: You were just mentioning the grocery store and all the bananas and all the bell peppers and all the cauliflowers lined up perfect and I could see how I saw in my mind's eye this idea of you walking into other people's homes and thinking, okay, we got to line up all the bananas.

We got to line up. And yet it didn't quite work out. I'm like, Oh, what's the variable there. Right. And it's other people's relationship with their stuff. And that, that, that was really helpful for you to, to, to draw those comparisons. We have similar backgrounds, um, of, you know, we moved a lot when I was younger as well.

And as you were talking about your relationship with your stuff, I was thinking about the relationship I had with a few things that I had and, um, how those things are. The, the sense of value in those things, what I was putting into the energy I was putting into those things, um, seems really, I mean, I can, I can, it's been 40 years, I can still vividly tap into that energy, that connection to that stuff.

And so I'm sure, I'm sure that's not too dissimilar from everyone's relationship, regardless of the environment that they came up with, that their connection with stuff. With their stuff, um, it's, it's not the stuff it's the connection to the stuff that you're really working on. And so coming in and like, telling people to arrange all the bananas together and all their cauliflower together, um, doesn't change.

Fundamentally, the relationship they have to their bananas and cauliflower, and I promise I won't mention produce for the rest of this conversation.

Nicole: No, I love that. Actually, I'm not sure if I've used that analogy before in quite that way, but you're right. I mean, what became really Clear to me was that, um, the greatest work that I do with other people when I'm working with them is, is what we call holding space for them to have the experience of like, uh, what, what's here because you know, everybody, I mean, most, most, everybody has stuff that we all have stuff, right.

And, um, it's, it's really. So much not about having less stuff is about being conscious about why you have what you have. Right? And then you can make a decision around, am I, you know, like, okay, now I know why I have what I have, because I've just been allowed to explore that through, like, this person standing here, me a professional, right?

Because people get very stuck. And they don't want to typically do this work and they, there's a lot of things that are way better, you know, ways to spend time. We imagine then clutter, clearing and organizing. Right? And that's the reason for that. Roger is because clutter clearing organizing has unceremoniously been dumped into the cleaning and tidied up category.

And I know. I don't believe it belongs there. And at least not the way that I do it. I believe it belongs in the personal transformation, like, you know, self discovery category, because you literally, if you, if you do it a different way, um, that is soothing to you and that calms your nervous system down and like, or you get to have like the, like the space to just drop into, what do I have without all the, what, um, really prevents us from doing it, which is being rushed, shame, embarrassment, not wanting to ask for help, doing too much of it at one time.

Um, those are all zappers and those all make us feel like this process sucks. I don't want to do this. Right. And so we don't go back to it, you know, because it just, uh, it feels so laborious and like a chore. But I think One of the things I'm most proud of is that clients tell me, like they're so lit up when they do this work, when they, when they, when they, when I, when they get away a roadmap for how to do the work differently.

And, um, and that lights me up because I do think that our spaces, we, These are our, these are our, our one and only place on the earth, you know, where we can just fully inhabit and have represent, have ourselves represented. And, and, um, if we, if we, you know, have all of these snags and these spots in it, where we feel.

You know, resentment or bad or guilty or shame or whatever, because, you know, we're walking into that energetic field of like, uh, you know, and I want people to love the homes they live in. I want the homes to feel enhancing to them. And honestly, that does not mean having to give away your stuff or give away something that you think you don't, you know, you have to, because you've had it for so many years and you haven't used it.

That is not Stuffology. It's all about the questions and about. The conscious decision to look at what you have, why you have it, and then make a decision from that point.

Roger: What a powerful reframe from going from like, even, even the word declutter makes it feel like a chore, like, you know, cleaning out the cat box, cleaning the toilet, clearing out the cobwebs, vacuuming.

That feels like that's maintenance, but you're talking about it as a form of gaining clarity. With the relationship and the space that you the one space that you have control over

Nicole: Yeah, and the benefits of that, you know that are immense To that you feel better in your space you sleep better you let you love your space.

You want to have people over you know, like one thing that always happens Always happens when I work with a client is that we get through a certain space. Like say we worked in there, like just like, let's say we just worked in their bathroom or something. So we went through the different cupboards, this and that.

And they're like, ah, so how do I let it get this bad? This is so dumb. I'm a grown ass woman and I couldn't like figure this out, blah, blah, blah. You know, whatever people say, you know, And then we get, we get through the process and then they invariably like text me or email me or reach out to me and they're like, yeah, I keep going back to that area and I keep opening the drawers and looking at it and they just get, I mean, honestly, it sounds a little like.

Uh, uh, like I'm not sure how it sounds, but they get filled with joy, you know, they're like, Oh my gosh, because their whole nervous system, their whole sense of like calmness and just like resonance with their space is, is, um, is occurring and it's just, it's such a profound thing. And so think about if you did that all over your space, like if all your spaces felt like that, but stuff already is not like a one and done, you know, like I really, I mean like it is my tool I use.

To just when I'm like, but I like a little fluttery or a little like, er, like just yesterday, I don't know why I woke up like a little bit in, you know, like a little cranky little wet. And I just opened up my, like, I know this sounds nuts, but I just opened up my, my drawer in my kitchen where all the utensils are.

And I was like, ah, you know how they get, you know, utensils stores get. And I literally took everything out of that utensil drawer. And I mean, I was still in my pajamas. I had barely had my cup of coffee yet. Yeah. But I, I just went through all those utensils and like got, you know, like sorted it out, did, did my process, put everything back.

And I swear, I felt so much better.

Roger: Yeah. In my simple mind, it, it feels like it feels a little bit like leaning into control. But, but what I hear you saying earlier was more about clarity and being conscious about those things. Is there a difference between having control of your stuff versus having clarity and a conscious choice about your stuff?

Or does that deference really matter?

Nicole: Let's see control versus clarity. Um, I think that when we feel regulated, We feel like we have a sense of, you know, what you're calling control, you know, like, okay, I'm grounded. I'm in my center. Like, I feel connected to my true self, my highest self, like what's going on.

And that to me, like, maybe like, is that sense of what you're saying, you know, about the control piece. And I think that this work is very self regulating. Like it, it, it, it really, truly, you know, calms your nervous system down. I don't know if you've ever seen that, that, um, image of, it has the word chaos and order, and then it has like the brain, like the little scrambled brain, and then it goes into like the, almost the labyrinth brain.

Anyway, it's like, just with like a connecting thread. I just love that imagery because to me, that's the process of Stuffology where you just feel really like you might feel scrambled about, Anything or whatever, but by the process of just tinkering with the things that belong to you that are yours and getting into that flow state of that, like, I'm just going to see what here, what's here.

And you have this whole, like, house full or what, or however, full, whatever level fullness around you, this playground to self discover, you can then. You know, invite yourself into doing this process and people like legit feel much calmer and much more like, um, like they've just, yeah, they have, you know, what you're saying is the control piece like that self I'm calling it self regulation.

Yeah.

Roger: Yeah. I think control gets a bad rap at times and it's probably the energy we bring to it. Right. And you, I mean, you want, you want You do want control of your car. You want control of your calendar. You want, and so, but there's over controlling obviously that's not healthy behavior, but when I, you know, when I spend time to clear my desk.

And I remove the 20 sticky notes of things I've written in my monitor when it gets full of affirmations or reminders, like it's okay, let's, let's, let's pair that down to just a couple of the key things. And I look at my desk and it's clear and I'm looking at it right now and it's not, but, you know, good thing the camera is not on my desk.

There, there is a, there is a feeling of control there. But it's not, I don't think of it as a negative one, but, and, but I only get there and, and you, you mentioned the word calm or the, the, the, the feeling of calmness and the feeling of clarity. When I remove the things from my desk that no longer serve me, when I'm taking those sticky notes of affirmations that I feel either.

Either I've adopted, I've internalized or I haven't taking those things off, gets me to be able to prioritize the things that are important to me and to feel a little bit more ownership and consciousness around. Okay. What is in my space and what's not? And that's that that feels, um, I want to use the word powerful, but then again, these words like control and powerful, they feel, um, I don't know.

They, those, those words can sometimes be negatives, but they, they feel like positives and maybe it's just the lack of my vocab.

Nicole: No, I can see what you're saying. You know, it does provide clarity for sure. You know, and I think that when you. When you are very discerning and very deliberate and very on purpose around like, okay, what do I have?

And you ask yourself compelling questions and you navigate yourself kindly and gently and compassionately. And then you recognize when you've got negative emotions that come up and you're not being kind and you just go through this process. You, you do then, you, you then do eliminate like the things that you get a very clear direction around where you want to head that day or in the, in the coming weeks or months or what, Not like it just becomes very clear, you know, you don't have to, you can literally like.

Allow your things to direct the process of this to direct you where you want, where you most want to be headed, I guess you could say.

Roger: So when we talked about Stuffology the first time, one of the things that I found to be so interesting is you talked about the difference between working one on one and working in groups.

Could you share with us a little bit more about that experience of working with, you know, one on one versus working in groups?

Nicole: Yeah, well, I love both. Um, what I have found is that is that there are what is some of what I was just mentioning a little bit earlier was that people are typically and this is what I've been noticing since I was 20 years old.

It's a long time. They're typically feel, feel very shame, ashamed, um, very, um, uh, hard on themselves, very critical. They don't want me to see their, you know, Spaces. It's hard to let someone like me come in. They feel like professional organizers are going to be punitive, perhaps maybe not that far off from the mark.

I've worked with a lot of professional organizers. They, they tend to be very, you know, have their opinions about things for sure. Um, and it's not an easy yes for people to allow a professional into their private space to do this work. It's very, very vulnerable. Um, so that said, um, I started something in January that I am like, totally obsessed with and loving, and it's called the Stuffology lab.

And it's a way for people to come on to a zoom and basically do monotasking and get into flow state with their cameras on muted, doing their own clutter clearing, organizing projects from the very, the very own home and with others there and, um, where. Where people are very reserved about like, and, and, and, um, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm letting you see this when I go to their homes in person, like, oh, like, very ashamed.

Like, there's a lot of shame, right? Or there's a lot of embarrassment or the different gradients. I guess you could say when we're in the lab, like, people are like, look at my mess. Oh, my God, like, it's like, who has the worst mess kind of a thing, you know, it's awesome. Like, they, you know, because I asked people at the beginning what they're going to work on.

Um, they could put it in the chat or they can, um, they can, um, you know, raise their hand and I'll say, Hey, yeah, what are you going to work on today? Cause we have a few minutes in the beginning to connect with each other. Um, because I want to create a safe space for, for people to feel like they can do this work.

And then at the end, they just all want to show, they all want to turn their cameras around and be like, look what I did. And I've just found that there's, um, There's this community that, that, that has been created this, this place for people to go and to do this work and to, um, have accountability and also have like, and have each other's back, you know, and, and I really love it.

I think it's a really powerful tool.

Roger: It's almost, you know, it's, there's this sense of, you said community and it sounded, it sounded joyful.

Nicole: Yeah, it's really, people are way more playful about it when they see that everybody's sort of in the same boat, you know, like everybody's got stuff and they're all working on it.

And so and so over here is working in their bathroom and so and so over here is working in their hallway closet. And you can have a time like, you know, like people are kind of looking around at what other people are doing. And one, you know, person's just working on like a junk drawer they pulled out of the kitchen, you know, and, and it's, It's really cool.

And it's one hour, the labs are one hour. And what, uh, what is something that is so unique? I think about my stuff, biology work that I've created is that you work for time. You don't work for project. So you don't say I'm going to get a project done today. I'm going to get the whole, you know, garage cleaned out.

Now that would be insane by the way, because you're going to blow your jets. You're going to run out of fuel, fuel. You're going to get into those survival emotions because you're going to get frustrated and upset. Then you've like blown up your environment and there's all this stuff out there and you're already out of energy.

You're hungry, you're tired, you know, the whole, that whole acronym halt, you know, and then, and now you've got a big mess and now you're pissed. That now you're now you're mad that assumes you're doing it by yourself too.

Roger: Yes, you're doing it with a significant other

Nicole: A whole other topic, right?

Roger: Not that that's ever happened here

Nicole: But when you work for time when you say I'm gonna work for one hour um, that's a whole different ball game because you then train you get trained you train yourself to stop at that one hour And then you take the time to then deal with that The, the little entrails of what you have.

Have worked on because in my method you pick an area that you're going to work and then I'm like great That's a great area. Now. We're gonna like 50 percent it down. So like say you say you chose your Your refrigerator and I'm like, that's great Roger. Let's do your refrigerator But we're gonna do like literally either the refrigerator or the freezer and then if I see your refrigerator and I'm like, wow That's a big refrigerator.

We're literally gonna do like a shelf because you want to give you want to retrain your nervous system and your whole psyche around the fact that this is okay. Like we're going to like actually maybe have a little fun at it. We're not going to take you too far because you think this is horrible.

Like your subconscious thinks this sucks and you don't want to do it. You'd rather do other things. But we're just going to take this tiny dosage of time. And then we're gonna stop and then you get to be done and you could totally do something else after that. Right? But you've tied it. You've left enough time in this 1 hour because you've chosen a small enough spot where you can where you can then do the full circle.

So, you've got, you've done that 1 shelf. You have the things that are going in the garbage. You've got the things that are going in recycling. You have the things that you're donating. You have the things that, you know, you know, those are the general three that were of another area there might be shredding or whatnot.

And then you're done. And it's been one hour and your nervous system and yourself, like everything can rally around that. And you feel good. You're like, I feel good. I could do more. And I'm like, no, no, we're not doing more. You're done.

Roger: And that really feels like an energy management, expectation management, and ultimately probably that sense of accomplishment of what you get done in an hour versus a whole day, it probably feels like a lot more accomplishment, although you, you, you're objectively probably getting more done, In the whole day, but your energy is completely zapped.

You've already Angered your wife a couple times and you'd never want to do it again Whereas the one hour in that feeling of what you accomplished in that one hour is is really powerful. And in fact Um the the the lovely miss lara my wife will refer to that and she's done this for years with our kids When they were here, um would call it the hour of power

Nicole: Wow.

Exactly. Right. Yeah. That's what I mean. And you know what? I tell people like if you get down a little bit earlier than an hour, that's great. Stop. You still get to stop. Right. But you know, the funny thing is you make more decisions in that one hour of time than you might make in the whole rest of your day combined.

You know what I mean? And so you don't, you want to respect that because you're, you're literally like, Oh my, like, okay, like we don't even use, you know, organic mayonnaise. And what does this do? And like, but do we, does Bobby, well, what do we have to ask him? Blah, blah, blah, blah. You know? And so you do that one little inquiry with the jar of mayo or whatever it is.

And you do that times 100, I mean, items in this one shelf or 50 and it adds up and you go through like, you think you can do more because we think we can, but we, but you, you, we do have, like, we can get into a decision fatigue very quickly and you don't, you, you're, we want to train your system to love this work and like, get to the place where like, that felt really good.

And I, I'm like, so excited and I want to do more because my space is like. It's like all of those one hour segments, they add up. They really add up

Roger: in a very positive way versus the one afternoon in the garage every 10 years, a different story attached. Yeah,

Nicole: it's totally true.

Roger: Again, not speaking from experience,

Nicole: It's funny because, you know, Um, once you go through the Stuffology process where you, where you, cause I have this whole process that you go through, right.

Um, you know, there's like a setup process and then there's, you know, there's these, these they're not rules. Like you can't have this many t shirts because you know, you've had, I don't have that like that. Like people were way, way, way too expansive as human beings to apply dumb rules like that to every person is my opinion.

Like I'm like, really? And I, so I just, I don't like to. To be so black and white. And I think that that, you know, pinches people off from like feeling like, and they can be who they really are in their own spaces. You know, like when they are like, Oh, I shouldn't have, no, no, no, no, we're not going to do that.

But once you go through the whole process of, um, this deep, um, clutter clearing, I mean, deep clutter clearing organizing via Stuffology, your first round of it, like if you go through your house, you never, you never ever have to do it like that again. Because you've gone into it so deep that you, and you've asked such a different level of questions and inquiry that you never pile up the way that you did before.

And that's something that astonishes people because what people have done instead is they followed someone else's systems, which is what I used to do. I used to be like, well, let's get you organizers and let's do this and let's do that. And then their systems would look beautiful. If I live there. Right.

You know, but they didn't. So like I, I, so I built in like a resistance to their system because they're like, that's beautiful. But they're like inside, you know, in a place that they're not quite getting to, they're never going to use that. They're never going to, um, hang up their clothes that way, or fold their things that way, or put, put their things.

So, you know, like you've, you don't, You, you have to ask different questions to really help people set up their environments in ways that match who they are and how they operate in the world. And this defaulty process gets you there, like, it gets you headed in that direction. So you're not creating things based on, you know, a system that some guy in Dubai created, you know, and then we have so much self judgment.

Because we think that we don't know how to do it because our places are, you know, quote a mess that we just think, oh, they know, well, no, you know, you know, but you just are need to get a little bit of information around how to ask yourself the right questions. What I have noticed around this whole subject is that people always try and create the systems 1st without doing the editing 1st.

And that's a really big, um. Thing to that I, that I discussed with clients right away is that you can't create the systems before you've gone through the stuff and then going through. And because we'd rather create, like, we want to go get the shiny stuff and like, create the systems and put things away.

But you can't, you can't do it that way because you don't know what you have. And so, say, for example, you were, um. You were going through your closet, your hall, your hall closet, right? And you only went through like a section of it. And then you built a system to just deal with what you had gone through in that one section.

But then you find in, you know, in your mud room that you have all this other stuff that needs to go in that hallway closet. But you've already built system, a system that housed What inventory you thought you were gonna have for that area. Does that make sense?

Roger: Oh, yeah,

Nicole: The kind of like the bad news about Stuffology  I mean, I don't really think it was bad news because I love it so much but the truth of the matter is Doing the whole editing process of going through your things section by section area by area and really, you know, It's seeing what you have.

And then, then by doing that process, the magic of Stuffology shows you when you finally know what is your inventory, what you have, when that area is clearly defined, like this stuff is staying, that stuff's garbage, that's shred, that's, um, recycling, then. You look at your, and you go, Oh, I'm not kidding.

It's like total magic. You literally look at it and you go, I know exactly what I need for this. And the system that you need becomes very apparent. And it's a really beautiful thing to witness. It completely frustrates me sometimes because I have so many great ideas. I want it to tell these clients around how they could organize their stuff.

And they're like, no, no, I got it. I know what I need. And I'm always like, Oh, that is a great idea for you. That's actually perfect for you.

Roger: Yeah, I love that for you. I love how you're creating space for people to be able to explore what's right for them with their stuff.

Nicole: Yeah. I call that holding space and it really is just being a container for them.

And you know, kind of concepts that you're, I'm sure already very familiar with, but being non judgmental, being really curious, um, asking a lot of questions, um, and, you know, And, you know, endorsing uncomfortable silences, like allowing them to get there, they're going to get there. And then, you know, when they need my help, um, it is usually more in the, like, I'm like an idea generator, like, and then they usually don't pick one of my ideas, but by, but by virtue of me having like, well, what about this?

What about that? Well, would this work for you? I've noticed that you actually, It seems like you actually prefer more to just have, like, hooks in this area and not have to, like, hang every, you know, go to the hallway closet and hang things up. Like, is that true for you? Like, that kind of, and then they're like, oh, and again, I keep coming back to this, but I call it stuff all of you because it's so much about the psychology.

But it's really then them going like, my God, I didn't even notice that about myself. I just thought I had a hallway closet and had to use the hallway closet. Right? Well, no, you don't. There's, um, you know, there's so many options. You can invent this however way you want to, like, let me help you be extrapolated with your, with, with, with what kind of environment would feel amazing to you, you know, and that is where they take off and they're like, Oh, I love, you know, they just, they really start to feel at home in their own homes.

Roger: So you get to, and you're just mentioned it there. You get to witness what it feels like when you help people develop a new relationship with their stuff. What does it feel like for you when you've had that positive impact on others?

Nicole: I love it. Like it feels like. I'm doing like my sole purpose is what it feels like, because it truly is one of those things where, yes, I've been observing people for like 30 years doing, you know, this work, um, in people's homes.

And so I've been gathering information, you know, around, like, how can I, like, take more, um, black and white out of this and add more and be more colorful for them, you know, but it just, you know, Brings out what I know are my best talents and my best gifts, and I just happen to be like, really, really, um, interested in helping people navigate that and seem to be very, you know, to have like a gift for that.

I guess you could say I love it, you know, because I get to like, help people create their unique talents. Environments and go through what can often be very emotional circumstances, a very, very emotional, you know, I mean, you know, memorabilia can be very loaded, you know, piles of paperwork can be very loaded going through your storage unit, where, if you've gone through a divorce can be very loaded, you know, so people need way more support around this and how to do this and really honor like their emotional systems, then they give themselves credit for, and I love to do that work.

Roger: So what do you know to be true? Um,

Nicole: let's see, what I know to be true about Stuffology is that our stuff is way more than just stuff and it has meaning and our stuff really is meaningful. Is this whole big, beautiful way that we can see all of where we've been on all of what we've been all of our experiences all around us, and that we all have this amazing opportunity to, like, literally just work with our very own environments.

To learn so much more about ourselves and how we, and how we, and how and who we are in the world. And I just love that about Stuffology. And I really do know that to be true, that you have this amazing opportunity right in your, right, right in your very own home to do self discovery at any given time. If you give yourself like one hour or less.

Roger: I love that because our stuff is amazing. Our stuff is a representation of who we are. And to some extent it's who we want to be, you know, how people want to perceive us. Um, and that's the outward expression is our stuff, or when they come to, people come to our house, we want our house to represent how, you know, what we value and what's important to us.

Um, And yet I think there's also just sort of like some, some mixed messages we get around materialism and you know, you, you are not your khakis, you are not your car. Um, and yet there's a reason why we pick those khakis and there's a reason why we pick that car. Um, and it's, those things do say something about us.

So being intentional and being, you know, curating. The stuff we have and the processes in which we, um, buy, maintain, and then ultimately get rid of stuff.

Nicole: Yeah.

Roger: The more conscious, what I'm hearing is the more conscious we are about those decisions, the more we can curate. Not only our relationship with the stuff, but then maybe also what the stuff says about us.

Nicole: Yes, exactly. A lot of people are living in environments where there is a lot of what I call irrelevancy. And by that, I mean that like, they don't, they don't, Know why they have what they have and the things many of the things they have don't mean anything to them anymore. They don't mean what they used to mean to them, but they haven't done anything with it.

And so you have this whole house where you just. You've just kind of phased out like, Oh, that picture on a wall that, you know, with my kids from high school and now they're like in their forties or what, you know, like we don't update our environment. We don't ask questions about, like, does this still matter to me now?

You know, is this still who we are now? Is this still who I am now? We just start to gloss over. Our environments, and when we do that, our environments start to start to start to deplete energetically. They start to lose their life force. Roger. They really do. And I'm kind of like, you know, slightly dipping over into the space cream piece, but they start to feel a little like, like, they just start to ticker down in like that sense of like, you know, like, Like, you know, when you, if you've ever moved or remember moving and when you first walk into that new home and it's like, Oh my gosh, you know, like that feeling of like what you're going to do.

And then you just stop seeing, seeing that after a while, if you don't consciously keep going after like, you know, even, even I call it the, um, The organized disorganized people, but even the people that have like really organized homes, but it feels, you know, stale because they just haven't gone through like that perfectly organized book, you know, book, a bookshelf or whatnot, you know, or, um, or these areas that look perfect, but they don't have any life in them anymore.

And so it's just, it's just the asking of those questions and, and the bringing the life and back into your environment by inquiry and about, and by spending time with, with your things, with you.

Roger: So what did you believe early on about Stuffology  that you've come to learn is not true.

Nicole: I really thought that more people would just want to do this work on their own. And that's kind of like a funny thing for me to admit, but like, Stuffology is the most amazing process, I think. Like, I mean, of course I would say that, like I created it. And I literally sometimes cannot believe that The work that people do when I do sessions with them, and then, like, just like the, like, just, you can just see their faces change and they change and they feel different and they feel excited.

And they, la, la, la, but, but they don't come back to it that easily on their own. Like, I leave and they're like, uh, they don't, it's not like. That is an easy adopt, but that is also why I'm really excited about the lab, because that is a very user friendly way for people to keep going with the work and keep building that muscle around doing this process, um, and feeling supported around it.

Cause it's still really hard, like way harder for people to do on their own than I thought it would be.

Roger: So Nicole, are you ready for the lightning round?

Nicole: Oh, sure. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Roger: Fill in the blank. Stuffology is?

Nicole: Fun.

Roger: So who in your life provides Stuffology for you?

Nicole: My clients. And the reason I say that is because, I kid you not, Roger, every single time I go work with a client and I do Stuffology, I want to come home and do Stuffology with myself.

Ooh. It's so, it is literally so addictive for me. Yeah, like I'm like, Oh my gosh, I have to go home and, and get after this or that. In a really excited and inspiring way.

Roger: Is there a practice or routine that helps you grow, nurture or renew your ability to perform Stuffology? You just said it. Doing Stuffology for others help you, but is there another practice or routine that helps you grow, nurture, or renew your ability to perform Stuffology?

Nicole: So I really do like, like my health, my Stuffology health is all about like following my own rules, like having my staging area, having a project area, like having my little, my little zone where I work on different, um, my different projects and, um, you know, taking my own advice, I guess you could say.

Roger: Is there a book or movie that you recently consumed or watched that you would recommend that has Stuffology as a theme?

Nicole: I can't think of one right now, actually. I'm sorry. I wish, I wish, I really wish, because I, because I know, What I know is that I haven't met anyone yet, and I don't mean this from an egotistical point of view, but I haven't met anyone who does this work the way that I do it, ever. I'm constantly looking, people constantly send me articles, did you see this, did you read that?

And I'm always like, oh, I can't believe that they gave that advice! Because I always think that these people are wrong, especially the minimalisms. I just totally do not think those people like, like there is too, it's too fine of a lane for the vast majority of people.

Roger: And I, I actually, as you said that I was thinking the minimalist, you know, wants to have fewer things.

Does that mean they're denying. Part of like their relationship or who they see, they are in their stuff. Or tell me, tell me how you think about that.

Nicole: That's such a great question because I think that the true minimalists are true minimalists. Like they, they really do feel way more soothed by having like, like minimal things around them where I don't.

Where I, where I get picky about minimalism is them thinking that everybody else should be that way because they are a very, very thin lane of people out in the world that just don't, just don't need that. But there are a lot of people out in the world that need more stuff around them. That is just how they built.

There are nurturers. They, they love to cook. They love books or lists. I mean, like there's a whole model for that within what's called five element theory that I won't get into, but like, we are very full of multiplicities, you know, that are human, are human, these human beings that we are, right. So just defining that we should all be minimalists is like, I don't, I don't condone that.

I don't agree with that. I mean, and like, I don't mind it in the way of like, Recommendations, but I find minimalism, they like, they're also very bright, you know, the people that write about minimalisms, you know, like what I read there or their information of course is very well organized, but it's also very judgmental.

And I don't like that. Like we don't need to be judged. We already feel bad enough about, you know, this whole subject.

Roger: I would imagine 90 plus percent of the people you work with would agree they need less stuff, but. You talked about the shame that people will feel this idea that, you know, maybe it's going from 90 percent stuff to 80 percent stuff, but the minimalist would say, yeah, let's, let's get that number down around like 10 percent stuff.

Nicole: Right. They would.

Roger: And so there, there's 70 percent of shame.

Nicole: Yeah. Oh. And then like, and the pressure of like, Oh, I have to, you know, and Stuffology is not about constriction. It's not about deprivation. It's not about like, I can't have this. It's about like allowing yourself to be who you are and have what you want to have.

And you know what? The best decision you can make sometimes is in Stuffology is always like. I don't need this. I don't want this. And I'm not ready to let it go. Great. I always tell my clients you get to keep whatever you want to keep and then they get to just be With the thing until they're ready to let it go.

They know they don't need it. They know they don't want it They're not ready to let it go. That is a conscious decision and that's perfect

Roger: So what is one thing that gets in your way of performing Stuffology?

Nicole: the, the one word that comes up is just time because, you know, Roger, like, like there's, there's all kinds of like groups out there for people that have issues with clutter and there's groups for people that have, you know, like, like literally like they call it like almost like a disease or, you know, like hoarders and this and that, like, but there's no shows out there about people that are like too clean and too tidy.

I have a problem. Like I have to like really like reel myself back and be like, I don't need to Stuffologize more than I do because I can get very, I mean, I'm just going to be like real with you here. Like I can get very, like I can lose a whole day, like tinkering, tinkering, you know, like just the granular nature of like how far down the rabbit hole you can get when you, when you know, like, I love, Self improvement.

And I love personal transformation. And, and this is a very effective tool for that. But I, I, I'm like, no, you should maybe go out and have some fun. Like a different kind of fun. True confessions from a professional organizer.

Roger: I love that. So if a listener wanted to ask you a question or follow up with you, where do you want to point them to?

Nicole: All roads lead to NicoleKincaid.com in my world, so it's n i c o l e k i n c a i d dot com, and that's my website. And then I also, I love Instagram, and I love Facebook, but I do cold plunge a lot, so if you don't want to see a bunch of, like, posts around cold plunging, you know, that's my, my, uh, my obsession, and my dogs.

But I do also post a lot about Stuffology on there because I have my lab and it's the way I communicate to people, um, and I'm on LinkedIn as well.

Roger: Nicole, thank you so much for this conversation. This has been so illuminating, so exciting. So I, I, you know, like I'm actually kind of jazzed to go spend an hour of power tomorrow. I know, when you say it's tomorrow, then maybe, you know, tomorrow never comes, but actually tomorrow, when I have a little bit more time. To spend an hour tackling my desk and then maybe the next day an hour of the, yeah, the utility drawer in the kitchen. And, uh, the lovely miss Lara will, will definitely enjoy going through this process with me.

So thank you for that inspiration. And thank you for sharing what, you know, to be true about Stuffology  and the obvious passion and light that you bring To this area and what it means for you.

Nicole: I am so grateful for this conversation. I've loved every moment of it. It was really, really fascinating to talk to you about all of this.

Thank you so much, Roger.

Roger: My pleasure. Grateful. That's the word I was searching for there. I am very grateful as well. Thank you. Take care.

Nicole: I will you too. Thank you.

Roger: Okay. I'm going to repeat that word. Grateful. I am so grateful to Nicole for sharing with us her superhero power of Stuffology  and to help us think about our stuff. Not as do we need it? Do we not need it? But more, what does that stuff do for us? What's our relationship with our stuff and is our stuff are our stuff is our stuff is our stuff.

Still serving the purpose that was the original intention behind acquiring that stuff. The question I'm asking myself in this conversation is, are there things that I'm holding on to within my superhero power that no longer serve me? And then I can let go.

What Do You Know To Be True? is a Three Blue Pens production. And I'm your host, Roger Kastner.

We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people to discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you may be on. Please go to native-lands.ca. Okay. Be well, my friends.