Building Resilience and Adaptability:| Resilience and Adaptability with Bill Hefferman

Transcript

Bill: And this isn't saying that they're perfect, right? Or that any of us are perfect or that even myself, like some people might get the idea of, “Oh my gosh, you know so much about this stuff. You must always be resilient.”

Then it's like, yeah, if only, right. Wouldn't that be great. I find as much inspiration from, from other people demonstrating this as I do from my own study and practice of it.

Roger: Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the, what do you know to be true podcast? In these conversations, I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill, a superhero power, as I like to call it. Not to try to emulate it or hack our way to a new talent. Instead, I'm interested in what inspired them to develop this talent and how they think about their superhero power.

The intention is to learn more about their experience with their superhero power, and in doing so, maybe we can learn something about the special talent in each of us that make us unique. This conversation is with Bill Hefferman and his talent in helping others with resilience and adaptability.

Professionally, Bill guides teams and leaders through tough issues and challenging times. He's an expert facilitator and engaging instructor, and for over 30 years, he has led initiatives across a range of companies, cultures, and countries. He's known as a passionate expert on leading for resilience and adaptability.

Bill offers principles, tools, and techniques for all to grow and flourish through the nonstop adversity and uncertainty that's so much a part of our world today. Bill has been sharing what he's learned about adaptability and resilience with co workers, clients, conference attendees, people who are incarcerated, And many, many more for so many years and today we get to add ourselves to that list of people whom he shared what he's learned about helping others with resilience and adaptability from being a Peace Corps volunteer, teaching math and science in Nepal to backpacking the Pacific Coast trail to surviving and thriving in corporate America.

Bill brings a wealth of firsthand experience to his resilience and adaptability practice. While he can do amazing things with a harmonica and frisbee, we're going to focus today's conversation on resilience and adaptability. We'll talk about how resilience and adaptability Helps us not only cope and perform in moments of stress and adversity, but how those skills allow us to be more present in those moments so that we can learn the lessons that those opportunities of stress and adversity have to offer so that we can become stronger people and live more rich lives because we had those experiences.

If you're ready, let's dive in.

Good morning, Bill. How are you doing?

Bill: Fantastic, Roger. How are you?

Roger: I'm doing great. I am really excited to be having this conversation. In fact, when I started thinking about this podcast, um, I thought about this conversation as being a perfect example of talking to someone about their extraordinary talent and, um, you know, no offense, but sometimes I refer to it as ordinary people with an extraordinary talent and you don't really, you definitely have the extraordinary talent.

I don't, I wouldn't call you “Ordinary” though.

Bill: Exactly. Yeah. Don't ever call me that.

Roger: The superhero talent that I want to talk with you about today is how you've been helping leaders and teams face adversity, ambiguity through resilience. And, and you've been not only a student of resilience, but you've also. Um, been sharing, uh, for, um, uh, at least the last 10 years that I've known you, uh, in workshops in, um, conferences, uh, with clients.

Um, so I, I'm really. Excited to have this conversation to learn a little bit more about how you think about, um, sharing resilience with others. Not only having that, that, uh, talent developed for yourself, but the sharing of it. So, um, Let's start off, um, by, by going back to the beginning, let's go back to the origins of what inspired you to learn more about resilience and sharing that with others.

Bill: Great. Well, so it was actually about 22, 23 years ago. When I had just been hired into a household name, high tech company here in Portland, Oregon, and I was hired in as an organization development professional to a business group that was getting shut down with the. com implosion, a very large business group, hundreds of people who were being redeployed.

And. Who's, you know, heavy job impacts. And one of my colleagues, I was talking to them about, about our normal tools and tricks for, for managing change around communicating and training and all the usual stuff that particularly at that time we were thinking of with regard to managing change, wasn't really cutting it for these people whose lives were being severely impacted.

She said, well, do you know about resilience? And I go, yeah, obviously we know about resilience, but she goes, no, no, it's like a, it's a discipline and there's a thing. And there's a guy here here in Portland named Al Siebert, uh, who wrote a book called the Resiliency Advantage and she knew him and she put me in contact with him.

And so I started talking to him and, and just, uh, got really enamored with the topic. And, you know, and, and the reason why. It just struck me as being so important, uh, is several reasons. One is it occurred to me that resilience, you know, it is a social phenomenon, but it's a largely, at the same time, a self driven phenomenon and something that I can choose to do for myself and, and, and habits that I can develop for myself.

And. Also, I thought it sort of spoke to me about my own life philosophy at the time and, and the, The benefit of, you know, really working on yourself and adapting to your own situation. It's not like I had a horrible childhood or anything, but there, but definitely some dysfunctionality growing up through which I, and most of my other siblings somehow found a way to flourish.

And I just really loved stories of people who were able to flourish. Not just. In spite of conditions, but ultimately because of conditions that, that we became greater through our, through our struggles and our challenges that we face.

Roger: One time you shared, um, with, I, I, I, Um, one of the groups that, uh, we were consulting with, you shared the idea that, um, a well lived life is not a stress free life.

Bill: Right. Uh, yeah. And that, you know, I got that from, uh, I got that from Kelly McGonigal and her Ted talk, uh, how to make stress your friend, as well as the book that she wrote after the Ted talk called the upside of stress in which she actually.

Um, calls on the, the research of some of her own research, but, but largely of, uh, of her colleagues research at Stanford university, Dr. Aaliyah Crum, Ali Crum, who runs the, is a principal investigator for the Stanford mind body. Institute or mind body lab and Aaliyah has done a lot of research into resilience mindset and what they, what she calls the stress is enhancing mindset that when we lean into our, the challenges that we face, um, and look at what's going on in any particular big problem or challenge that we're facing.

Um, there there's meaning there and that when we turn our attention to, um. You know, what really matters here in terms of my own values, in terms of trying to have a positive impact, we ultimately find meaning in that, and there's a, there's both psychological and physiological or neurophysiological reasons for that, that when we turn toward meaning, we turn towards oxytocin.

And which, which ultimately is a, and what, and it's what makes turning toward meaning in crisis, it flips the switch on that crisis being from a very stressful, debilitating, you know, cardiovascularly challenging event into one that is in fact Um, with, with oxytocin, it flips the switch on our chemistry and turns it into a vasodilator.

And this is why people who embrace stress and change in difficulty. Um, and, and turn toward that meaning ultimately do better, way better in terms of longevity and overall health and life outcomes.

Roger: Before we get too far, how would you define resilience?

Bill: Several ways. So there's different aspects of it. So the first aspect is the one that we're familiar with. If I asked you to think of somebody that you, that, uh, is habitually resilient in the face of difficulty, you could think of those people. Okay.

Thank you. In, in your life. And if I asked you to think of those qualities and characteristics of that, that person, that sort of resilience role model, if you will, um, you know, you, you know what that looks like. It's like, I don't know what resilience is, but I'll know when I see it. Um, and so, but it's that ability to, to roll with the punches, water off a duck's back.

He just. You cope with things in a positive, resourceful, um, productive way with adversity, change, uncertainty. Um, it also has that physical part of the description of resilience. Something that is resilient, uh, springs back to how it was when it's stretched, pressed, bent, et cetera. Um, and And, and so there's that bounce back, which is really an important part of that definition because when you, um, it's not about being perfect and about always being bulletproof and never being vulnerable.

It's about being vulnerable, being human, getting knocked down, but then dusting yourself off and getting up and getting back into the flow of things. And then finally, the, um, the last aspect that I think is really important about resilience is this. Um, I'm not so super fond of the term, but this sort of anti fragile, this sort of anti fragility, but what that speaks to is that, more importantly, is that resilience isn't just about bouncing back to where you were, but you bounce forward.

It's always, it's almost like a, a helical, you know, elevation in your life of your, your personal and emotional development that as you face challenges and as you bounce back through these things, you come back. smarter, wiser, more connected, you know, if I asked you to think of, you know, if, Ask you to think of something that you don't find difficult today that 10 or 20 years ago, you found difficult.

It's because of that bouncing forward of when you face challenges

Roger: and I remember, um, you 1, 1 time describing resilience as being that rubber band. And yet the problem with that analogy is usually a rubber band that comes back after being stretched, comes back to its original state. And the problem with that metaphor is that the, you know, through resilience, the rubber band actually should be stronger, right?

And therefore, it's more like a muscle. The more you use a muscle, the more it does break down, but in the healing, it becomes stronger.

Bill: Yeah, actually, that's a really great analogy. I think it is definitely more like a muscle and in fact, that's what A lot of people use that, that, that analogy, but it's not just an analogy.

It's, it's reality that, you know, in terms of our bodies that, uh, and particularly in terms of our muscular development, that they'd only get stronger by getting torn down a bit, you know?

Roger: Well, Bill, I think, I think most of the things I've learned about resilience, I've learned it from you. So I'm sure that was an analogy you used with me before, or I was had the privilege of being able to hear you talk about it.

Yeah. So what. Motivate you to, I mean, obviously there's a person, you know, there's, there's a personal benefit to learning about resilience, but then you go the next step to share that information with a lot of people, with your colleagues, with your clients, um, as I said before, in workshops and conferences, um, I've seen you in many different forums.

Spread the gospel of, of resilience. What, yeah. What, what motivates you to do that?

Bill: You know, it's, it's, it's a great question. Um, several things. So from a, from a personal perspective, um, I have found through my life and even before moment back in 2001, during the dot com implosion, when I heard about resilience from my, my colleague, and then from Al Siebert, even before then that this, the benefit of, and I, the lived.

I had this lived experience of bouncing back from challenges and it just became a, a life philosophy or a life strategy for, for excelling. And so, and for being happy ultimately, um, and, and fulfilled. The other thing is that, um, I see the, and hear from people the impact that this information has. And that, um, particularly in the last several years now, before, before the pandemic, it was a pretty popular topic.

And, you know, once I. Talked about it a bit with folks are like, Oh yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I, I could, you know, yes, I am resilient too at times and here's what I do, et cetera. Um, but for the last several years, it's really with, with, with the increases in, in burnout and the great resignation and, you know, quiet quitting and, and all that stuff.

Um, and not to mention just the rise in, in mental health issues around the world with. Increases in loneliness and anxiety and depression and all that, that being able to provide people some skills and some principles for maintaining a more even keel and for flourishing, uh, through all that difficulty and challenge.

Um, it just like, it lights me up because I see them light up and I get, I just get such a buzz. From, uh, from really feeling like I'm making a positive contribution to people's lives.

Roger: Is there a, a virtuous cycle where that then helps you be more resilient in yourself? Seeing other people become more resilient, does that help you become more resilient?

Bill: I think that's true of all of us. Um, I am so inspired. by other people in my life that, um, that demonstrate that resilience in the face of incredible difficulty and hardship. Um, I, when I talk to people who are in the middle of dealing with cancer or some major life struggle, and they show up. Um, you know, in a, in a, uh, a resilient, adaptable way, and this isn't saying that they're perfect.

Right. Because, and, and, or that any of us are perfect or that even myself, like some people might get the idea of, Oh my gosh, you know so much about this stuff. You must always be resilient. Then it's like, yeah, if only, right. Wouldn't that be great. Um, I find as much inspiration from, from other people demonstrating this as I do from my own study and,

Speaker 2: and, and practice of it.

Bill: One of the things I, I realized recently that I really want to share again and something I've produced before, but I, but I haven't shared it in a while is a sort of a resilience is, is not side by side diagram of, and resilience is not an individual sport. You know, resilience is not, is not, you know, golf or tennis.

Singles tennis or whatever, but that it's, um, you know, pick your analogy. It's, it's, it's football. Football is life. Um, thank you, Danny Ross. Um, so, uh, yeah, it's, there's definitely a, a strong social component, which is why it's, you know, we all. We need to be there for each other. Leaders need to be there for their followers.

Followers need to be there for each other. Team members need to be there for each other. Family members need to be there for each other. And that when they are, when we are connected with one another socially and showing up in a way that is more supportive, more resilient, more resourceful. Uh, for, for others, it really creates that what you're talking about, that virtuous, that virtuous cycle.

And when others show up for us in that way, when we're down in the dumps, you know, uh, it's might be hard to believe, but sometimes I get anxious and challenged and struggle myself. And I get the same encouragement, uh, from others that they get from me.

Roger: Not too long ago, I heard about the concept of a resilient shepherd and it's that, that person, the person on the team that, um, helps other people.

Be more resilient. And I think that's a little bit of what you're talking about here, where you see other people being resilient and it's, um, it's motivating for you. Um, have you seen, or have you studied, um, what do you know, uh, about, uh, teams and having that, that, that concept of a resilient shepherd and is that, um, I'm, I'm, I'm curious if that's usually one person or if that's a shared role that gets passed around and contacts, what do you know about that?

Bill: Like with. Most things organizationally, it's really the leader and the leaders that, that have the strongest leverage in setting that tone. And, um, there's some research that was that, uh, that was shared in, um, Gabriela Kellerman's and Martin Seligman's latest book called Tomorrow Mind, in which there's this really interesting section on resilience there, and in which they say that, Um, people who report to a resilient leader are three times as likely to be resilient, resilient themselves and 50 percent more productive and 30 percent more creative, et cetera.

And that, so, so those, you know, when you think about the ultimate resilience shepherd is really that leader who's able to show up, um, strong, humble. Service oriented, uh, compassionately oriented also, and does all those things that, that, that I, that I talk about, and that, that the research suggests, um, resilient leaders are people who lead for resilience, demonstrate these qualities and behaviors.

Um, but, but, but again, um, it doesn't have to be a formal. a formal leader, a person who is a leader positionally, but can also be anyone on the team.

Roger: Yeah. We've been on teams where, you know, the, the, the leader is the role model. And then we've been on teams where that might not be true, uh, and some of those capabilities or skills that yeah, it's almost like, in spite of the leader, we will, we will thrive.

Yeah, but it's,

Bill: it's particularly tough. I think that that with that leader that that is showing up. Um, you know, as. Uh, in the, in their less as their less resilient, resourceful self, um, I mean, we all, we all go there, we all panic, you know, and, and no one has to be perfect. But it's really about what's that, what's that habit that they, where do they habitually go?

And if they habitually go to the yelling and the screaming and the micromanaging and the, you know, all that stuff that, that, uh, non resilient leaders. Um, and it's, I think it's super hard for, for a team with that situation to really flourish fully in the way that they have potential to.

Roger: Not too long ago, you were sharing with me this concept of the evolutionary advantage of joy and, and, you know, obviously there's an evolutionary advantage to fear, you know, when we're, when, you know, when we were drinking at the water hole and something is wrestling around in the, in the bush, um, Or amygdala would fire off and we're running back to the middle of the herd.

Um, but this idea of the evolutionary advantage of joy, um, seems to be the flip side of that. Can you say a little bit more about that and how being more resilient helps you access joy?

Bill: That's great. And it's funny. It's also works the other way. I think joy also helps us access resilience. I was listening to a podcast yesterday with, with Michael Jouret, actually.

Um, you got me thinking about him again and, um, and I forget who the guest was, but in positive psychology, the guy who talks to Fred Bryant, who talks about savoring, and I was thinking about joy and, and, um, And as it relates to the, the psychological tool, the positive psychological tool of, of, of savoring.

And Fred said something really interesting, is that getting less unhappy doesn't necessarily make you more happy. that, that those are separate phenomena. So, so when, if you think of the, the analogy, as you know, that I like to use and thinking about resilience as a horizontal line, and that if you're below the line, you're in that non resilient, non resourceful, not coping well with things, fight, fight, freeze kind of state.

And that when you're above the line, you're in this resilient, resourceful, joyful, et cetera. And those skills and tools that can help you go from those super negative Unhappy, uh, not coping well states. Up to, you know, to, to, to get up towards that line, that midpoint, um, aren't the same skills that will elevate you into those upper reaches of being above the line.

And that's where joy and gratitude and savoring and mindset and positivity and creativity and collaboration, all these where that comes to fore. And, um, and you can think of it in terms of of, uh, psychoemotional, um, buoyancy that, um, that when you, um, experience these more elevated states of, of joy and happiness and connection, it, it acts as a bit of a buffer to getting pulled down, uh, below the line.

Um, and the other thing about joy, That I, uh, really like is, and it comes from, there's a way of thinking about joy in terms of it being, uh, not like this explosion of ecstasy, like, Oh my God, I went to this concert last night and it was just so inspiring. And I mean, there's that kind of joy, but then, but those aren't always accessible and, and every day, every moment we have available to us, these little micro moments of joy.

That in polyvagal theory, they might, they call glimmers and, and a glimmer is like a little microburst of connection, of meaning, of joy, of beauty that you purposefully look for in your life. Now we normally experience these glimmers. Um, in terms of, you know, the sunlight coming through the window in a particular way, or, or, or a funny interaction among babies, or kids, or cats, or cat videos, or, you know, whatever these, these little, these little moments are.

And, um, and they, and the more you habituate yourself towards looking for those glimmers, the more you see them, as you develop the habit of, Looking for those little joyful moments in those little glimmers that you then habituate yourself, uh, to that.

Roger: That makes me think that one of the reasons why you share so much about resilience is you see the impact and that gives you joy.

Does that sound true?

Bill: Your premise at the beginning of this was that, you know, what's your, what's your fastball, what's your, what's your superpower. And for me, I'm really a short, what I liked in my 30 years as an organization development professional, my boys, at one point it hit on me that I'm a short haul carrier that I'm not that guy you're going to stick on a project for, for months on end.

But if you give me that short term mission of showing up for a conference, showing up for a group of people showing up for. Um, an experience that I've designed and that I'm then able to deliver that whole process of, of being given that mission, thinking about that group of people, designing a solution for them, and then delivering that.

There's such an incredible energy and connection that happens when I give people, have people break out into, you know, triads or, or pairs and, um, share stories about their own personal resilience role models or something like that. And then they go and sit with people and listen in on these conversations.

They just really light me up because I'm like, yes, this is where this is, this is real. It's, this is helpful. Um, I'm having an impact on these people's. And if you think about in terms of like what kind of junky I am, it's like it is, it's that's, that's really my, that's really my drug of choice is being able to orchestrate these kinds of human interactions and seeing them unfold.

Roger: So Bill, what do you know to be true about resilience?

Bill: So I've been at this for 22 plus years studying this topic. And the thing that I was really Only made mindful of in the last seven years or so. It's not a technique, it's not a gimmick. Um, it can, it, it can be. And some of those gimmicks and tricks can help ultimately is really your core beliefs and assumptions.

Your mindset about, about the nature of difficulty and the nature of life and the nature of challenge. And the more that you can lean into. that challenge mindset, the more that you can lean into that stress as enhancing mindset, um, the, the, the, the stronger your resilience will be. Um, this is another strong point around what I know to be true is that if we can, leverage the power of the pause, the sacred pause.

And just when we're all spinning and ruminating in our heads and Filled with anxiety and worry, getting pulled down the drain into the, you know, way below the line. Trying to fight your way out of that, those depths of despair and rumination from that state of being is, it's not very effective. Einstein said something to the effect of, our problems Can not be solved at the level with the same mindset at the level of which they were created or something like that.

You need to, you need to think differently. You need to be in do differently to, to change your state. And oftentimes what that takes is, um, this is another thing that I know to be true is that one of the fundamental core practices of resilience that serves us Um, and I think what he does really well is simple mindfulness of being able to drop into a present state and take a step back and look at the big picture and look at things objectively and go, okay, I'm feeling pretty stressed and this bad thing just happened and I'm feeling kind of anxious about that and that's okay.

And I'm going to practice this sort of radical acceptance of just what is and not judge it and just be where I am right now. And from that state. Of, of presence and of here and now kind of accepting non judging presence. We don't have to fight so hard to get back. Oftentimes we'll sort of, you know, through brownie in motion, find ourselves, um, you know, getting back into a more neutral state.

And then from there we'll have greater access to our, more of our, you know, tools and tricks of. Joy and gratitude and, and reframing, uh, about how we look and see things. And then one last thing that I should say that I, that I really know to be true in resilience is that, um, that just, and it kind of comes back to mindset, but that, but reframing how we're thinking about things.

And that takes that pause, that mindfulness. And then from there being able to say, okay, so what's the, what's the positive challenge here, or what's the opportunity here?

Roger: So what I love about what you just shared is, um, I was thinking about the old. saying, stop, stop, drop and roll. Yeah. Now that's when you're on fire, which may or may not be applicable in this situation, but having, you know, you, you said having that mindset and, and I might've stepped on the punchline earlier where, um, you had previously shared this idea that a well lived life is not a stress free life.

So, you know, the absence of stress, the absence of, um, of, of change and adversity, like one probably not. Going to happen any, you know, in, in, in any situation, but, you know, maybe that, as you said, the radical acceptance, that mindset, that there will be moments like this, then the, you know, when it is happening, that ability to be present to get in the moment, because a lot of the things I think that are fueling the reactions are things that will happen outside of the moment that will need to be deal with that.

Uh, it could be really, um, really, you know, Big, impactful things, but in the moment. Those things are not happening. And so all you can do is control that moment. So being radically present

Bill: and controlling the controllable, you can controllable and focusing on what can I actually do at, in this moment.

Roger: And then the third thing of, of again, sort of shifting it to like, what's the positive, what's the opportunity to flourish?

What's the opportunity to overcome? What's the, um, How can I look at this in a positive and grow from this experience and not just look at it as a negative or a threat, right?

Bill: Right. And what's that bigger than self? What's my bigger than self goal here is another one that I, that another reframe that I really love, uh, and then also you were talking about, you know, how can I grow from this?

So having that growth mindset that says, okay, I'm, I, I'm not a master of this, right? Situation yet. Um, what do I need to learn here? Um, in dealing with it.

Roger: Mm hmm. What's something that you thought to be true about resilience early on that you have come to learn is not true.

Bill: Yeah, great question. So they're all great questions, Roger, but this, I like this one.

Um, the, uh, several things. Um, I think Used to be, and still am to a certain extent. Averse to what some, what we would ordinarily think of as negative emotions or, but they're, they're not negative emotions. It's just energy. It's energy in motion. And, and this is a problem that some people have with positive psychology.

And it's a misinterpretation in my mind of what positive psychology is, that it's not a, it's not happyology. It's not how to just be happy all the time. I mean, cause there are definite advantages to positivity and to having that. Sort of glass half full, uh, perspective. Um, but at the same time, it can also be.

Particularly when we're helping others. Um, it can turn into, you know, toxic positivity. Um, where our expectation is, well, you know, we're feeling uncomfortable with other people's discomfort. And so then we demand of them to be happy. You know, so, 23 years ago, here I am, like, in my early 40s, when I was really starting to study this.

And I was more oriented towards that sort of happy ology and more like we, we should just be more positive. Um, which is true to a certain extent, but then I've developed this more nuanced understanding that, um, we got to be real. And that while we, while these challenging emotions, anxiety, worry, frustration come into us, um, or come into our lives.

Yeah. Um, we don't have to shut them, you know, shut the door in their face. Um, and, and pretend they're not there, but, but we don't need to. You know, overly indulge them either. So, or, or make them bigger or more real than they are. And that's where I think mindfulness and acceptance come in of where you can.

And again, this is simple, not easy, uh, uh, is being able to accept and be with where you are. Of those more challenging emotions that some people might think of as being quote negative emotions like grief and sadness, but those are having experienced parental loss in the last few years of my in laws and my own mother, um, and getting into this.

It's some, some, some depth of, of grief around those, but then feeling from that or, or learning from that, that they're not, those aren't bad things to feel and, and they're just very natural things to feel and they serve a purpose. And, and there's a, there's a sweetness and a, and a connection and a, and a, uh, there's a term of a psychologically rich life, which is a really interesting concept.

There are people who have, who are prone to having more psychologically rich lives, which um, tends to correlate with higher levels of, of meaning and. And purpose, but not necessarily with that sort of hedonic, like, isn't life fantastic sort of isn't life always joyful.

Roger: I'm sorry. I have like a childlike sense of joy this morning and everything you're talking about.

I'm, I'm, I'm sort of like connecting to, um, the, the Bobby McFerrin, uh, comment or, um, this idea, you know, now I have the song in, in my head from the Lego. So. Kids movie, uh, everything is awesome.

Speaker 4: Oh yeah.

Roger: And the idea is like, if everything's awesome, is anything awesome? Yeah. Um, so, so like to know grief, you also need to know joy.

Right. To know sadness. You also need to know love. Not that these things are necessarily opposites, um, but to, to have that full range of, of, you know, what, what we consider positive and negative emotions, um, makes life more rich, more valuable, more of an experience than if it's just monochromatic.

Bill: Right.

Very much so. I think, and that's what Fred Bryant was actually saying in this, Podcast with Michael Gervais, um, is that when we shut ourselves off from feeling and experiencing those challenging emotions, we, we attenuate or, or, or dampen, um, the highs as well, that our ability to really feel joy and love and connection.

And I think that's also. related to what I was talking about in terms of a psychologically rich life.

Roger: Okay, Bill, are you ready for a lightning round?

Bill: Yeah, let's give it a try.

Roger: Which do you prefer strenuous yoga or a deep meditation session?

Bill: Uh, deep meditation. I'm a meditation guy.

Roger: What's your go to pizza or tacos?

Bill: Oh, tacos. I could even, yeah. Port again. No in Portland. Oh, so good.

Roger: When you're going on a retreat, do you head for the water or do you head for the mountains?

Bill: Mountains.

Roger: When learning something new, do you prefer to listen, read, or watch?

Bill: Listen.

Roger: A favorite book or movie you've recently watched and would recommend,

Bill: you know, Ted Lasso, of course.

So I love things that make me that both. Well, this is why Ted Lasso is so great. It's that, that, that they, they're, they're poignant, um, but they're also super humorous and, and just touches in a really, and positive, I'd say, you know, just in a really empowering and lifting, uh, enlightening way.

Roger: Fill in the blank.

Resilience is a team sport. Hmm. Say more about that.

Bill: This is the thing that I think people might resist or push back against in resilience is, is there a misunderstanding of resilience? It's like when somebody saying be resilient. It, we're almost telling that person that they're solely responsible for their flourishing and well being when in fact we're, we do depend upon one another and our social connections and that goes back to the, the Harvard, uh, study.

of, you know, following these men, these people over 75 years, um, starting in the 20s, these Harvard undergraduates, and they follow them and, and for, and then also the people in, in the community next to Harvard, um, and, and the thing that was hands down most predictive of a happy, flourishing, positive existence was having deep, meaningful social connections.

Roger: So, Bill, before we go, where, if people wanted to learn more about resilience and to learn more about Bill Hefferman, where, where would you point them to?

Bill: That's great. So that the couple of places, a few places, um, billhefferman. com, you'll find me there and find most of the links and how to contact me and you can even set up some time with me.

I have a Calendly, a schedule link there. Um, there's LinkedIn, of course. Just search for Bill Hefferman. There's only one of me out there. M A N. Bill Hefferman. And then, um, I'm starting to publish on Substack. And so they can find me at BillHefferman. substack. com And, uh, and there, I'll be publishing, uh, Articles on a blog, you know, four to 600 word things is what I'm aiming for.

I think, um, at least two times a month, possibly more.

Roger: If they're in Portland and they want to see you play the harmonica, what, what's the, uh, what's the band name and where do you guys play?

Bill: Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's called, uh, the pagan jug band. It's sort of a bluegrass. inspired, uh, Americana, uh, folk band, uh, and we play every third Tuesday, six to nine, at a really great well known Portland music venue called Laurel Thirst.

It's in an area called Laurel Hearst, but it's called the Laurel Thirst Pub. And every third Tuesday, yeah, come find us. Pagan Jug Band. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter.

Roger: Bill, thank you very much. Thank you for this conversation. Thank you for, um, you know, the dedication you've put into learning about resilience, um, and not only showing up, uh, for the teams that I've been able to, um, be a part of where you have been.

Been that resilient shepherd where you've been that role model, um, and then really dedicating a large part of your professional career to sharing, uh, what you've learned about resilience and that every time you and I talk, you have learned something new about resilience. And so you're constantly evolving that knowledge and that which you share.

And it is a gift that you give all of us. So thank you for doing that. And thank you for sharing your insights today.

Bill: Yeah. Thanks, Roger. And you've been, you, you asked earlier about like, uh, are there other people in my life that, that, you know, provide that same inspiration and you are definitely one of those.

I, I consider you a fellow traveler along the, the path of, uh, greater living through resilience and adaptability.

Roger: Wow. Well, thank you. That's an honor. Okay, my friend. Until next time. Be well.

Bill: All right. Thanks a lot, Roger. Take care.

Roger: Bye bye. A big thank you to Bill Hefferman for sharing his insights and knowledge about resilience and adaptability and for bringing his own theme music.

That's right. The music today was provided by Bill. Stay tuned for the outtakes to hear the complete song if you want. I'm grateful whenever I get to hear him share his experiences in both learning and teaching others about resilience and adaptability. I love how he breaks down that while resilience does help with dealing with stress and adversity, it is resilience and adaptability that helps us bounce forward and become stronger because we went through that challenge.

so much. To borrow an idea from the TV show Ted Lasso, resilience and adaptability are what helps you grow even stronger when you go through the messy middle parts of any journey or experience. Bill also shared an important perspective from Kelly McGonigal that I think is worth remembering. A well lived life is not a stress free life.

This conversation is an opportunity for us to consider how does stress and adversity impact our own superhero powers? And going deeper. Does our response to stress and adversity enable our talents to shine brighter and have a more meaningful impact on others? Or does our response have a negative or dimming effect on our superhero powers?

And if so, where do we want to work on our resilience and adaptability to increase the potency of our talent so we can have a bigger impact on others? As Bill would suggest, working on resilience and adaptability can help us wherever we are on this response continuum to stress and adversity. So there's no better time to start.

If you're not sure, What your superpower is. One way to learn is to ask a trusted friend or colleague as a heads up. They're likely to ask you what you think their superhero power is. So be ready with a response in advance. So much good stuff in this conversation. I'm grateful to Bill for continuing to share what he knows to be true about resilience and adaptability so that we can all be better together.

and learn as we go through those messy middle parts of our lives and show up even stronger for our family, friends, teammates in ways that help them be even more resilient to. And thank you all for listening in. If you liked this episode, please do us a favor and give us a review or click that like button, whichever platform you're on.

Thank you for doing that. It's a great way to help others discover the podcast. What do you know to be true is a three blue pens production. I'm your host, Roger Kastner. We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people to discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose lands you might be on, please go to native hyphen lands.

ca. Be well, my friends. And Bill, play us out.

Bill: And now I've forgotten the question.

This is the outtake. Okay.

Take two. Anyway, so that's, that's, that's what I think I've learned, really, and how my things have evolved over the last 20 years. Is to becoming just more embracing of and more accepting of the dark side

Roger: in our community. You're, you're known for being a disciple of resilience as well as for playing the harmonica.

And this is, um, possibly 1 of the longest times you and I've had a conversation where you haven't, um, you know, whipped out the harmonica and start playing. I, I know it's within reach. You can go ahead and play us a tune right now.

Bill: Um, I don't know. Let's see. It's funny. We'll see how it picks up on the mic.

And what is this thing? What is this? This is a C, a G, what is this? Can you hear that?

Roger: Bravo!