Approaching DEI with Curiosity, Empathy, and Accountability [Bonus Episode with Kevin Jones]

Transcript - Approaching DEI with Curiosity Empathy and Accountability

Roger: The idea that, you know, if you want to stand up for the dignity of all, you cannot deny the dignity of some who are engaged in denying the dignity of others. So how can we approach this work? Um, and this is where we can be intentionally curious about like, how can we approach this work with the people who need to be involved the most and treat them with the dignity we would hope they would treat everyone else with.

Kevin: I love that. 

I think there can be so many different answers based on, uh, again, on our own experiences, but I keep going back to empathy, compassion. As soon as we start to judge others, we lose that connection to empathy and compassion. We other them. And so in my own life, in my own journey, as hard as it can be for certain groups of people, it's important for me to.

Take the position that most people don't intentionally mean harm most people mean good And I do believe that I believe there's their exceptions to that rule But by and large most of us do not wake up every day saying what am I gonna F up today? And who am I gonna mess with and so this whole idea of Exercising compassion and empathy goes a long way to at least even if I disagree with you, even if I think what you're doing is harmful, how can I find a respect for you as a human being so that we can then identify some common ground?

Roger:  Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the What Do You Know To Be True podcast. This episode's a little different. It's an excerpt from the intentional curiosity with Kevin Jones episode. And Kevin and I took a slight departure from the usual interview to discuss the state of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and to share our perspectives on the role of curiosity, empathy, and accountability, and how we approach the work that we do.

To be clear, as my friend, Mark Meadows once told me, all perspectives are valid and partial. Meaning that Kevin and I want to acknowledge that our views are partial and that they are only reflective of where we are in our journeys right now of our unlearning and learning and relearning. In the moment, we welcome your voice in this conversation, encourage you to participate with us in this discussion.

Please share your thoughts in the comment section of the YouTube episode, and we'll see you there. None of us alive today created the systems of inequity we live in and work in today, but we do have a choice. And that's to willfully ignore those systems, to actively work to change them, or to continue to try to benefit from them.

This is the choice in front of us. If you're ready, let's dive in.

Roger: Love that you were able to find an organization that allowed you to be who you truly are and, and allow you to show up in your best self. And it's, it's always a little head scratching when organizations don't allow that because the research is clear boards should be looking at the organizations they govern and be able to see, okay, we know.

Where people are able to show up in their best self, that leads to higher performing teams and higher performing teams lead to more profits for organizations that don't allow people to show up in their true self. Then, you know, you're, you're leaving money on the table. That's not the reason why. You should do it, but it could be a motivating reason for boards to that, that govern them large organizations that don't allow people to show up to be able to, to approach that, um, there's, there's a moral and a human reason to do it, but, you know, we live in a capitalist society. Why not lean into that?

Kevin: I think that is such an excellent point you make, Roger, because one of the other things, uh, and I, I talk about this in the book as well, you bring up boards. Um, when we look at boards across organizations in America, 0. 4 percent of them are, uh, identify as LGBTQ. 0. 4 percent of the members of boards.

And so what a wonderful opportunity to create more diversity at the board level. Those boards that are governing organizations where that diversity of thought is important, where we can generate more curiosity by diversity in teams. Let's start at the boards as well and set the example by having more diverse boards.

I'll get off my soapbox there. I think it's such a great point, though, because the best way that we can show those values are by living them from the top down within an organization. 

Roger: 100 percent agree with you. And I think, you know, the, the diversity, um, equity and inclusion has taken a little bit of a, of a hit lately with so many, you know, chief diversity officers and people leaving, uh, those DEI roles, um, are being forced out, um, as organizations begin to, you know, if, if 2020 was a pendulum moment.

They're swinging the other way. And I think the same argument could be made diverse teams, um, in general outperform, uh, homogenous teams. And so there's, there's an economic value, an equation formula to be able to, you know, boards should be looking at that, you know, teams with greater diversity and greater representation outperform those that don't.

Um, and that's, Again, another, another capitalist argument, um, for doing the right thing, but you know, hand in hand. Yeah. 

Kevin: And I, I love the point you're making there about the diverse thought as well. Um, and to your point, the studies show this time and time again, and I use an extreme example, but let's say you have.

Uh, a leadership team that's made up of all white men, uh, all white straight men, I would even go as far to say, uh, there's no females, there are no people of color, no LGBTQ, that when that comes to life is when you realize that these people, uh, straight white men, And I mean, no offense to you as a straight white man, Roger, but there is this idea that you're going to bring a, a, a series of your own background and experiences, which are diverse.

And yet as a straight white man, growing up, your experiences are going to be very different to a black woman. And so, Those ideas that might come from a person of color or an LGBTQ member, uh, will come from a different place and a different set of experiences that are likely to be missed out on if they're, if they don't have a seat at the table.

Roger: I think I think where people get challenged in in conversations around diversity around, you know, privilege, um, is when they start. Thinking about it personally and what, you know, in, in these kinds of conversations, these kinds of efforts, we're, we're, we're not, we're not really focused on any one individual.

We're actually focused on systems. We're focused on, you know, systemic oppression and where, um, where you at an aggregate level. Um, under representation, under estimation, um, happens. And, you know, when you look at, like, the stat you just gave about boards being 0. 4%, uh, LGBTQ, when you look at leadership, uh, within industries, um, how it does skew heavily.

To the straight white male, um, and yet populations don't, um, skew in the same way. Then, yeah, maybe, maybe there's something systemic we should be talking about and not whether or not, you know, me as a, as a straight white male, did I have struggles? Did I have challenges? Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, the Buddha will tell us life is suffering and I don't mean to diminish anyone's struggle.

Everyone's challenge, um, even that of straight. White men, um, yeah, we all have struggles. We all have challenges. And yet, um, you know, by, by thinking it's the same for everyone, um, it's, it's just, um, you know, lacking facts, which also, you know, referred to as ignorance. 

Kevin: Yeah, yeah. And, and, and to that point, you know, it's, it's, there's something fascinating, uh, kind of, again, going to this notion of, um, intentional curiosity.

Some of the people I coach who are, uh, straight white men, that is a wonderful opportunity to. Practice that intentional curiosity, uh, I wonder about their own challenges and their own experiences that got them to this point in their careers. And so it gives you this beautiful chance to open up a conversation about what diversity of thought means to them.

Uh, in a very specific way in the context of a coaching relationship. But I'm not only curious about what they think about it, I'm curious about what they may want to do differently, what they may want to do the same, what fears they have, what concerns they have, what opportunities are there, uh, within themselves to continue to grow as they start looking for more diverse thought that may make them uncomfortable.

And so that's how in my own life that intentional curiosity also plays out is in these situations where we're looking at challenges with diversity at the at the leadership levels and in some of the people I coach, they're trying to figure out Within themselves, how to understand the value of diversity of thought more as it relates to the success of their leadership teams.

Roger: I mean, we, we all hopefully are on a journey of learning and unlearning and trying to create a more just and equitable society, let alone, uh, workplaces. Um, And it definitely seems like, um, creating space for white straight men to, uh, be curious, to understand what's preventing them from participating in these conversations and helping to, you know, join, um, join the struggle to dismantle systemic racism, systemic sexism, um, that's in, in society, in the organizations, it's in the water we swim in.

Um, That's, that's where I think, um, a lot of work has not happened. Um, probably a lot of work has, and I know some organizations that take this on and I know individuals who take it on as well, but I think that's really where we'll see the next movement, um, in social justice. It's, um, Guys that look like me, um, beginning to, you know, be curious themselves about, um, what's preventing them from participating.

I think a lot of it is the fear of getting canceled, the fear of saying the wrong thing. And as I read, um, and learn more and more about, um, you know, uh, uh, people of color who are involved in, in DEI work, um, continue to talk about the mistakes they make. Almost creating a little safety around, um, you know, others making mistakes and learning from them and, and growing from them.

Um, I think that's, um, I don't know if that's intentional, but I think that's going to help again. like me be able to, to join the conversation and join the movement, um, to make, to make the, you know, society in our workplaces more equitable. 

Kevin: And you were saying something about those experiences or the mistakes that we make.

Uh, and we collectively, and the value of those mistakes is that it. We, I hope it allows each of us to draw on those mistakes to generate empathy, because I am, it is so important to me. And I talked about this in, in conversations I have in coaching. This isn't about me banging over the head of a straight white man.

This is about understanding. Their their experiences and inviting them to a conversation Rather than approaching this with this sense of judgment, you know, there's this that old, uh, walt whitman comment that I learned through ted lasso which is um Be curious not judgmental And the whole notion of that is Again, I am curious about you.

I'm not going to judge you for your experiences or for how you got to where you are today. And I do think that's where a lot of we, again, the whole, the whole aspect of cancel culture is, is far beyond the realm of this conversation. But if I talk about feeling canceled, I do feel like so much of it in my own experiences is when we.

approach a situation with judgment and perhaps we could leverage a bit more empathy. I'm never going to approach a straight white man and say, you're doing it wrong, uh, because somebody could point that finger right back at me, uh, more often than not and say, yeah, so are you. The idea is to approach it again with that sense of curiosity, that intentional desire to understand where they're coming from.

And I just feel like there's so little of that in the world today as we become more polarized and tribal. And the more we cancel, the more we look at people as other, uh, the less likely we are to find common ground and demonstrate that sense of empathy. And so, I think it's important to each of us as we demonstrate or embrace intentional curiosity, it gives us an opportunity to break that cycle.

Roger: There's a couple things popping up for me as you were just saying that one, there's a U2 song where part of the cure chorus is, um, there is no them. There's only us. And then, you know, so, From cool pop song to, um, geeky, um, organizational development book, um, the Oz principle, uh, which is about, um, helping organizations and individuals be more accountable.

And in, in that book, um, they talk about when something goes wrong, um, the, the next two steps should be the individual saying. You know, how did I contribute to the situation? The second question being, what can we do to move this forward? And I think that is applicable when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion for us to think about, okay, how, how am I contributing to the situation?

And then what can we do together? Not what can you do, or what can you do or what I can do? It's what can we do together? Cause that's. Yeah, the journey when we're all on together, um, will be, well, we'll get us to where we need to go and not just individual. Achievements or attempts. Yeah. 

Kevin: Yeah. Beautifully said, beautifully said.

I love that. And, and I know we have talked a lot about the DEI aspect and the, the, the, the evolution of that. And, uh, you know, my final thought on that would be, uh, it's incumbent on all of us, uh, even in the LGBTQ community. And I, I may get a little flack for saying this, we can be our own worst enemies sometimes when we expect change in others.

Uh, because we may feel like we have been wronged, and oftentimes rightfully so, um, but we often can think that that change is one way because of our own experiences and the way that we have been hurt and harmed by society, and so it can be harder for us to, you know, Demonstrate and leverage empathy for others who are different because we have been treated differently so much of our own lives.

And so I say that with, with love and compassion, and it's an opportunity, to your point, As, as a team, what did I do and what can we do? And so it's not, again, what can you do as a straight man? We all have that opportunity to ask ourselves, what could we do differently? 

Roger: Just recently when I heard, um, someone talk about the idea that, you know, if you want to stand up for the dignity of all, you cannot deny the dignity of some.

Who are engaged in denying the dignity of others. So how can we approach this work? Um, and this is where we can be intentionally curious about like, how can we approach this work with the people who need to be involved the most and treat them with the dignity we would hope they would treat everyone else with.

I love 

Kevin: that. And I think there can be so many different answers based on, uh, again, on our own experiences, but I keep going back to empathy, compassion. As soon as we start to judge others, we lose that connection to empathy and compassion. We other them. And so in my own life, in my own journey, as hard as it can be for certain groups of people, um, It's important for me to take the position that most people don't intentionally mean harm.

Most people mean good. And I do believe that. I believe there's, there are exceptions to that rule. But by and large, most of us do not wake up every day saying, What am I going to F up today? And who am I going to mess with? And so this whole idea of exercising compassion and empathy goes a long way to at least, even if I disagree with you, even if I think what you're doing is harmful, how can I find a respect for you as a human being so that we can then identify some common ground?