Lead with Quiet Confidence with Jennifer Marcou

[00:00:00] We may start with introversion, but as soon as people get over, oh that's how my brain works. The actual language of introversion goes away and what we're looking for is finding your true

[00:00:13] leadership. So like any coaching anyone it's finding what's true for you and how do you pursue that? And so watching someone kind of accept themselves or who they are and their preferences to then

[00:00:27] finding that internal confidence to then taking action and recognizing oh I am in an extra murder world so I do need to change my behaviors. And so but it's not changing who I am.

[00:00:44] Hi I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to The What Do You Know To Be True podcast. In these conversations I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill, their superhero power and the

[00:00:55] meaningful impact it has on others. The goal is not to try to emulate or hack our way to a new talent. Instead the intention is to learn more about their experience with their superhero power

[00:01:08] so that maybe we can learn something more about the special talent in each of us which then allows us to connect more deeply with our own purpose. This conversation is with Jennifer Marcou and how

[00:01:20] she coaches others to lead with quiet confidence. Like many people I've spoken with about their superhero powers, they're journey to making an impact with others started with their personal relationship with that superhero power and developing it so that they could apply it for themselves to overcome

[00:01:40] a challenge they experienced. In Jennifer's story is no different. As a female leader in a male dominated industry she found that a natural style of working and her gender was not well represented

[00:01:53] in her peer group and definitely not in the ranks above hers. She was faced with a challenge to either put on a mask and lead in authentically or learn how to lead in a way that was authentic

[00:02:07] to her own style and as she says with how her own brain works. In this conversation Jennifer shares how she learned to work with and how to lead others in ways that played to the strengths of her

[00:02:21] introversion. She also shares how she now coaches other leaders to live into their natural style and how to use their introversion as an advantage and not something to cover. Her message

[00:02:35] is a great one for the introverts to embrace and think of introversion as nothing more than a style. It's also a powerful message for extroverts to be aware of so we can be better aware of what we can do

[00:02:49] differently to be more inclusive and be better partners and co-creators with everyone in the room. Not just the ones who are the first to speak or speak the loudest but instead for those whose voices are equally valuable, equally important, equally worthy of being heard and being fully represented

[00:03:10] in the conversation. If you're ready let's dive in. Good morning Jennifer, welcome to the pod. It's good to see you. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Oh it's my pleasure. I'm really excited to

[00:03:26] learn more about your superhero power of leading with quiet confidence and the impact it has on others. But first I think it would be important to learn how you got to this place from your

[00:03:38] working at Microsoft to become in a coach, to being very targeted and who you work with and why. So tell us how you got to wear your hat. So it was back in 2016. I was at Microsoft as you said

[00:03:56] and I had a person on my team who took a coaching class with Seattle coach and she came back from that class was quite extensive several months. In the feedback from her team was just

[00:04:10] incredible like that she is her name is Moshe Rosy Mustrandrea, she's an incredible coach and the leader and these were feedbacks I had not heard from her team before and so I said wow this

[00:04:24] coaching thing is pretty amazing in helping to develop and grow people and that's something I've always been passionate about so I said I got to take this train. So I took the training

[00:04:36] it was amazing and I did not want to be a coach at the time I just love developing and growing people and continue to do that in a leadership role but in 2000 actually the same year

[00:04:47] 2016 I took a class where I had to write down five things that I could be doing five years or now and so one was obviously doing what I was doing but at a higher level or doing it in another

[00:05:00] company and one interesting thing I wrote down again this was 2016 was have my own coaching and leadership development business but not do any business development which is ridiculous how can you have your own business without doing sales or business development so I was like scratch

[00:05:17] that off it makes no sense I can't do that and I think you know I'm an introvert so the idea of doing sales is just like oh my god that'd be the worst thing in the world so I didn't really

[00:05:28] think about it until about 2019 I had done I loved training development I had done a training where we had identified our values have you done that before yeah so I had done a five or six times and

[00:05:44] I was kind of rolled my eyes because I said they never changed they're always the same and that year they had changed and two things were different one was on my top five values one was achievement

[00:05:58] and respect were no longer on my top five values and of first I said oh my gosh was I lying to myself and I realized no actually that is not important to me anymore and it was replaced by development

[00:06:12] and awe and here I am in the corporate world and I say how does off didn't anything I do in my work and then subsequently my stepfather passed away that year and it made me realize life is short

[00:06:28] and I kind of went back to that what can I do in five years so this is now four years later and I said wow I really really want to coach people and so made the decision

[00:06:40] end of 2019 so notice a date March 13th of 2020 was my last day of Microsoft March 16th was my first day of my coaching business and it was also the week that our governor closed

[00:06:56] down the state for COVID and it was an amazing time to start a coaching business so going back to that thought around hey I don't want to do business development I would just reach out

[00:07:09] to people on LinkedIn it's a how are you doing you know how's this COVID thing happening you know what are you doing and how's your family and I would tell them what I was doing but I would never

[00:07:18] ask a question or state the question do you need a coach do you know someone who needs a coach and in the first like three minutes our last three minutes of the call they would usually say

[00:07:30] I think I need a coach and so I was like I'm a coach so that I think you and I had talked about this that is like a business development call but it's actually doing it in my way

[00:07:41] which was not this salesy pressure rise you know conversation was a conversation and that's how I started my business and then very quickly I realized I just loved coaching introverted women particularly who are in either tech or STEM or some sort of more male

[00:07:59] dominated or perhaps extroverted organizations where these are the people who are not raising their hands to get support they're at a mid levels they're not automatically getting support you know that maybe senior leaders do get and so I realized that this is something on passion

[00:08:19] I was one of those women as well still am at least introverted woman and realize I could really help them for you know through coaching itself let alone my own experiences. Yeah your passion

[00:08:34] your capabilities the thing that makes the world a better place all come through in that story sorry I love to see that and yes we we know each other off outside of the podcast where

[00:08:49] were members of the same book club and that's what brought us together which I'm so grateful for and when in those times where I get to hear you talk about the work that you do that passion comes

[00:09:00] through it's super strong. I do have a question about the story that you'd tell and the the people you'd like to work with are you know female technology leaders who are introverts you're also a female leader who's an introvert. Was there someone that helped inspire you

[00:09:21] the way you're helping and inspiring others? I've had lots of great leaders mentors kind of mentoring moments I don't feel like I've had a mentor per se but I've had lots of people who provide

[00:09:37] support at kind of opportune times. I think being an introvert I have mostly learned on my own without asking for help because that's something I've always been uncomfortable with and it's

[00:09:51] through observation what I want to be like and what I don't want to be like and so that's been an interesting process of you know recognizing throughout my kind of career there are certain leaders

[00:10:06] like Al Kelly who actually is I think he's the CEO now of Visa who you used to memorize he said he would memorize people's names so that when he had an organization of thousands of people he

[00:10:21] would remember their names and that was to me such a great insight of connection. So here we're someone who had this artificial process to connect to people but it was incredibly powerful because

[00:10:34] you're like how can Al Kelly remember who I am and that you know my husband plays golf or I have three kids or what have you and so I think there have been moments I've had actually a super

[00:10:46] extroverted boss who I learned from that we had such different skill sets. We would walk out of the same meeting and it felt like we went to two different meetings because she would take away something different

[00:11:02] and I would say hey Jo didn't really like that idea and Jane is all I'm bored with us but because of her extroversion and she was a one speaking the meeting driving a lot of the change

[00:11:13] she wasn't observing what was happening so we actually were a great compliment and what I learned from her was you know she would know that I was not going to speak up and she would make space for me

[00:11:25] so that is where I learned kind of the partnership it's not just about me and who I am and what actions I take but it was about finding a partner who's able to open the way to allow me to speak

[00:11:38] in that case. You're touching on something I think is really important in that we've there's been a few episodes here on this series where we talk about the stories we tell ourselves and how to rewrite those stories but there's also the stories we tell ourselves about certain situations

[00:12:00] do you find that introverts and extroverts and introversion extroversion that shapes the story we tell about an experience we've had? Interesting so when I talk about introverts and extroverts it sounds like it's very binary here are there an introvert or your next word we all know

[00:12:22] there's a whole scale and there are different types of introversion extroversion in fact I think the official test you can take is hexico or the big five tests and there are different types of introversion so I'm going to use introversion as a general term but know that

[00:12:41] when I talk about that it is something that there's a whole array, a whole spectrum of introversion introverts and extroverts can see things in a very different world a different way. I think

[00:12:54] introverts just by nature is much more reflective inside so there's a lot of analytical thinking going on inside of an introvert whereas an extrovert is much more upward focused and there's

[00:13:08] there's not a good or bad to this it's just different and so the idea of what an introvert will see is very different they're going to be observing body language and extrovert is going to be

[00:13:22] focused on getting what they want to say out and so in many cases an introvert finally figures out what they want to say but the meeting is already over or an extrovert has already stated

[00:13:34] what they want to state and so it comes off as an introvert is not participating and an extrovert is highly participating when in fact they're both using different strengths just in different

[00:13:46] ways I always laugh that part of the challenge of an introvert is to just be got why is that a problem because introverts hate to interrupt and an introvert I always say the extroverts have no idea

[00:14:02] how many times people have been interrupted or how many times they've been interrupted or they've interrupted others and introvert knows how many times they were interrupted or other people were interrupted and so it's just as different observation different expectation different value

[00:14:17] that comes out that then impacts people's behavior so absolutely people get a different view of what's happening in a meeting or situation because of that more reflective observational strength versus an extrovert who is extroverting and stating their perspective and sharing that which

[00:14:38] is an incredible strength so I love how you're calling these strengths because I'm not sure if everyone sees it the same way I think an extrovert sees extroversion as a strength and introversion

[00:14:52] as potentially a weakness do introverts and I'm I'm gonna ask you to speak for all introverts I know that's unfair but do introverts also see introversion as a strength or do they have a different outlook on it? It's interesting I as I mentioned coach introverts and so usually

[00:15:16] in the beginning of a coaching session I'll ask if someone is more introverted versus extroverted and of course a media reaction of a person who I know is an introvert will say oh

[00:15:28] I have friends I like to go to parties I like to have fun and so it is this feeling especially in American society and probably Western society in general that extroversion is more preferred than

[00:15:41] introversion there are lots of reasons for that in school raise your hands be out speak up front do presentations and the work make sure you're you know speaking here opinion lead out in front

[00:15:54] is feedback I constantly got but realizing that actually once you realize oh about half the world is an introvert so it's not an abnormal thing and that an introvert or introvert preference

[00:16:10] does have a lot of strengths that extroverts don't have can be very powerful and so I actually share with my clients the differences between an introverted and an extroverted brain and so by the way

[00:16:23] I haven't even defined what introversion is to me there are lots of psychology tests that you can test your assessment on extrovert versus introversion but for me I use what Susan King

[00:16:36] from who wrote quiet uses which is where do you get your energy so I say if you go to a party you have a great time you come home what do you want to do do you want to spend some time with yourself

[00:16:46] to re-energize or do you want to go to the next party to re- to energize and so an introvert will use you saying I just want to read a book or I want to go to see if I want to go and walk by myself

[00:16:58] that does not mean they don't like to go to parties so I think there is this almost embarrassment I don't want to admit I'm an introvert but once I share their brains are different so

[00:17:09] I'm not a brain scientist so don't look up the scientific background on what I'm about to say but I've learned a lot from other scientists around the introverted versus extroverted brain

[00:17:22] again this is going to be binary but it is not at all our brains are exactly the same in terms of the type of neurotransmitters and the processes but there are just certain strengths the strength

[00:17:34] of the extroverted brain is that there are more dopamine receptors dopamine is a neurotransmitter is the reward transmitter or the reward yeah neurotransmitter and so an extrovert gets a reward by speaking or getting a like on social media or being you know in a party whereas an introvert

[00:17:57] gets their hit is really on the acetycalling neurotransmitter which is much more slower moving it's not about a reward system but the brain actually takes the stimulus of whatever information is goes to the pre-fundal cortex which is where the thinking happens the analysis happens and

[00:18:17] then goes to the action so that is why an introvert you know finally figures out what they want to say but the meetings over because they had to think about it first whereas an extrovert doesn't take

[00:18:29] that extra step they actually think and speak at the same time and is able to get their points out in the meeting so again not good or bad it's just different and once you share that with an introvert

[00:18:40] oh I'm normal it's okay that that it because the society is in their boss and their teacher has always told them speak up speak up speak up once you understand that that's just there's a biological

[00:18:54] process happening you can't change that but what you can't change is behaviors to help you in that type of environment. Thank you for for walking us through that and given us the not only the working definition between introversion and extroversion but then talking to the strength and the

[00:19:13] the chemical the biological difference between the two and you know I'm this is a confession I have sometimes been that extrovert who has you know been a dopamine junkie and and learned and learned something out in a meeting as a way of externally processing things

[00:19:37] and have later to realize the fault and what I said in that you know I never thought of it as a rush to get that dopamine hit but I'm sure it's there but in that you know contributing engaging in the

[00:19:54] meeting trying to contribute to something and there's that you know there's that excitement of being in that discussion and contributing and you know really it's probably sucking up the air for

[00:20:05] other people to be able to you know have more deep thinking about you know how you know they're how they would process that information and how they would contribute and you know you know

[00:20:18] since I'm in the confession booth you know being male be a consultant being a facilitator like there's a lot of like work things that have pushed me to lean into that extroversion and

[00:20:35] I've learned this a couple years ago that a lot of the activities we do within our group methods are really aligned to extroversion and not aligned to get as you say half the people in the room

[00:20:48] to participate and that's that's been something once I once I became aware of that started thinking okay how do we how do we give our introverts the opportunity to read something in advance to

[00:21:02] be begin that processing process so they feel okay to be able to contribute in that space and the extroverts like me in the room aren't sucking all the air out of out of the space and not allowing

[00:21:17] them to do so so little activities like you know if if we're asking people to do a sticky note first the first the first thing we do is give people five minutes to write their sticky notes by

[00:21:28] themselves and there's no talking I have found that to be helpful the pre read and advance to give people opportunity to process an advance and the introverts absolutely do the pre reading the extra the extroverts don't at their peril and so I think there's little ways that can

[00:21:51] help bring everyone to the conversation do you have any tips or tricks or things that you do or would recommend someone you know someone who might be relying too much on extroversion or playing

[00:22:02] on that in the room so I want to be careful that we don't demonize either behavior right so the extroversion that's just your brain that's how your brain works that's how your brain works best

[00:22:14] and I always tell leaders if you want to get the most out of an extrovert ask them a question right now if you want to get the most out of an introvert ask them a question today and have them

[00:22:24] give you an answer tomorrow and so just being aware of the differences and personally your own preferences where you're going to do your best work is super important so as you know when organizational development or learning development different styles people sometimes like to act

[00:22:40] as they learn sometimes like to read ahead sometimes you know want to learn from someone else or ask questions about it so just appreciating those differences super important I think for an introvert

[00:22:53] learning one that's just my preference of what my brain is going to do what do I need to do to be able to be successful in a world where the meeting is going to happen and a decision

[00:23:04] is going to be made and if my voice is not heard then that's going to be a detriment to the organization or the decision and so connecting to what you're accountable for it's not a preference and oh I

[00:23:17] don't like speaking up it's actually I'm hurting the organization I'm hurting the team if I'm not speaking my opinion because it feels like you know either someone has said it or people must be thinking

[00:23:29] about that but it's not important or however I'm downplaying my perspective and so connecting to your purpose is one way for an introvert to overcome that feeling of I don't really need to say anything

[00:23:43] or it's uncomfortable so to your point on you know both again binary but it's not binary both sides of introversion next to version and next reverts just as you're saying needs to be

[00:23:54] aware oh maybe I'm speaking too much maybe I need to step back and an extrovert would naturally say well Joe what do you think you're opinion it's which is exactly the opposite of what you want to

[00:24:05] do in an introvert but leaving space and the flip side of that on an introvert called Jennifer my heart is beating I have an idea but I'm nervous to say it I have to be brave and state it and

[00:24:19] maybe it doesn't have to happen in the meeting maybe it's a follow-up email maybe I have a partner in that meeting who I talked to before or after that meeting who can help advocate for this

[00:24:29] idea but it is changes on both sides to get the most out of each other and I think it's also kind of recognizing there are differences and appreciating those differences I wasn't wondering training where we separated the introverts in the extroverts and so the introverts and

[00:24:45] extroverts as a group individually had to ask questions of the extroverts and vice versa and we the introverts says you know we're gonna ask the extroverts why do you talk so much and the introverts

[00:24:58] we're gonna ask the extroverts why don't you say anything and it was so interesting this very you know extreme perspective on each other's behaviors versus saying wow thank goodness the next introvert is there to help drive kind of the start of ideas and then hopefully pause

[00:25:17] and thank goodness the introverts are there observing what's actually happening in this meeting but then have to step up and state that and name that that can be incredibly valuable on those sides the other thing I just thought of is sometimes when we're when we're designing a

[00:25:32] workshop where we're hoping to get to a decision we're you know understanding assessing analyzing data where we're coming up with insights themes and then we're looking at you know okay what's the plan you know to move forward one of the things that I've seen work really well

[00:25:52] but I think it's been done not out of a sense of introversion, extroversion and how to play to the strengths it's more of an availability on the calendar thing but to schedule rather than

[00:26:02] an eight hour session four hours on one day four hours on the next and you give people the overnight time to reflect and I think you know not only there's the obvious benefit to the introverts

[00:26:14] but I think there's also the benefits to the extroverts who might have blurred its out something on day one and then they can rethink it and come back with maybe a more refined answer

[00:26:25] on day two and hopefully the introverts are coming in with you know with their thoughts and their ability to provide the insights and and everyone's making a decision based on better information

[00:26:37] absolutely and I think there's also research on sleeping on something allows your brain to process it more so certainly that's an advantage that introverts already know let me think about it but your point extroverts also get the benefit of sleeping on it allows your brain to process

[00:26:57] that information maybe you see it in a different light or add new value to it so I totally agree with I also think the mix of small and large groups can be very helpful and a group of even 1020

[00:27:10] can be very intimidating to an introvert where three or four can be much more palatable yeah that makes me think about there's liberating structures which is a set of group methods they have an activity that's called one I think it's one two four all and the idea is

[00:27:34] you know here's here's a here's a situation or here's a challenge or here's a question and you spend time by yourself thinking coming up with questions coming up with responses and then you go into two people in that diet where you discuss it and come up with questions

[00:27:50] and then you get together with another diet and you discuss it and then you bring you know bring the you know the the best of to the big group and offer it up as hey our group

[00:28:02] rather than one individual okay we're getting we're getting geeky here with the with the group methods I want to get back to your coaching practice and you're working with the female leaders

[00:28:16] who are introverts and I want to I want to learn a little bit more about the impact that it has on your coaches when you're able to talk about introversion as a strength and help them

[00:28:32] be able to lean into their introvert version as a strength. Mm yeah so as I mentioned before like just helping them understand there's a biological process happening that is driving some of their

[00:28:45] preferences. I think it's step number one I think the next and this is not just an introvert comment at all it's about kind of finding that inner confidence and being confident to ask

[00:29:00] for what you want I'll give you an example I coach men I also coach extroverts when I speak to an introverted woman about coaching and the opportunity to be coached she will usually say

[00:29:14] I wall pay for it directly and when I speak to a man introverted or extroverted he will always say well let me see if my company will pay for it. So always tell the women hey you know what your

[00:29:26] colleagues are asking the company to pay for this coaching why don't you go ask and that almost becomes the first test of hey am I willing to stand up for what I believe in and some people go ask

[00:29:39] and some people say no I'm not ready for that and that's fine and I've lost some clients because they've done that because the company says oh we have our own coaching program I am totally

[00:29:49] fine with that because that person has taken a step to ask and that's part of the challenge for an introvert especially at mid level where you don't have that experience and have built

[00:30:01] that confidence up but to say hey I am who I am and I can ask for things that I need and that I want and I can be brave and I think that's a key part of what introverted women

[00:30:18] can build is build that inner confidence and then once you get that inner confidence then it's really about the external behaviors you know we talked about a couple of these of how to deal with the next-year-old environment preparing for a meeting or decision or presentation to your point

[00:30:37] there are a lot of over-prepared people who are presenting if you're an introvert but yet that give you confidence and confidence to be able to answer questions even if you're not prepared for it so

[00:30:51] being able to interrupt someone in meetings to be able to get your point across so there's certain behaviors you can learn once you have that connection to and everyone has it that inner wisdom

[00:31:04] but it's being able to bring that up sooner and being able to think about the behaviors you want to change without changing who you are not changing your values about changing your strengths

[00:31:14] but bringing to the table your unique leadership style so you mentioned one of the first exercises you give introverts is to go ask for the company the pay for it is another exercise that you ask

[00:31:28] is to go interrupt an extravert in a meeting this week. I don't stay that exactly like that but I do say things like if they want to speak up in meetings okay well how many times

[00:31:43] do you want to speak up in meetings this week and if they say well I'll do it one time and I was like hmm what about three times and it's a negotiation not so much to forcing them to do something

[00:31:54] but to put them outside of their comfort zone and that's the way we're going to learn again it doesn't mean I think people can hear that say I'll be more like an extravert which is a feedback

[00:32:03] I constantly got not in so many words but in terms of behaviors people were looking at me for and I realize actually I have no problem speaking up when it's something I'm passionate about it's the more challenging when I don't know the topic I'm not the expert

[00:32:23] there are more senior leaders there's situations where I myself kind of put a tamp down whatever I wanted to say or my confidence or brave ability to be brave because of the

[00:32:37] external environment they get in the same person when I show up in places where I am very passionate about whether it's supporting women's leadership or supporting introverts you know a lot of people

[00:32:49] when I'm speaking with a lot of introverts don't think I'm an introvert because I'm so passionate and I have so much to say to them but you put me in a room of a lot of extraverts and more senior

[00:33:00] to me oh I shut up this stuff and I have to overcome those same things the sweaty palms I got to speak up it's it's a learn behavior you just mentioned that you got the advice be more like an

[00:33:12] extravert was that the worst career advice you've ever received oh and then there's there's moment where it's like oh if that's not it I don't want to hear it because that just because

[00:33:27] had idea of like you know that's the ignorant the lack of information that the other person has that introversion is a straight yes and it's a behavior that you can turn on or not

[00:33:45] and so I'm not sure if that was a worse career advice to cut but it is something that was maybe not explicitly stated to me but implicitly stated to me by the environment and who was successful

[00:33:59] in that environment for me it was just hey do great work and it'll be recognized well that's not the way it happens like if people don't know you're doing great work then it's not going to be

[00:34:08] recognized does that mean I need to be like an extravert absolutely not but there are ways that I can again modify my behavior you know be more visible as another you know piece of feedback I used to get

[00:34:22] to enable others to see the great work and connect to your purpose so as I mentioned when I'm speaking with introverts I can look like I'm actually quite extraverted because I am doing it

[00:34:36] in support of the other introverts as opposed I'm doing it for myself I'm not there to tuted my own horn I'm there to help others so if you ask an introverted leader if they you know are able to speak

[00:34:50] up to get a promotion or a raise oh no I can't do that but if they're asking for a promotion or a raise for their team absolutely they're all over that because they're trying to connect

[00:35:00] into their purpose it's not about the ego it's about others giving to others what does it feel like when you're able to help an introvert realize that introversion is a strength and take on the

[00:35:14] behaviors that amplify that strength what does it feel like for you? It is amazing and it's interesting the way you even ask that question we may start with introversion but as soon as people get over oh

[00:35:33] that's how my brain works the actual language of introversion goes away and what we're looking for is finding your true leadership so like any coaching anyone it's finding what's true for you

[00:35:47] and how do you pursue that and so watching someone kind of accept themselves or who they are in their preferences to then finding that internal confidence to then taking action and recognizing oh

[00:36:01] I am in an extraverted world so I do need to change my behaviors and so but it's not changing who I am so it's about you know modifying what you do I'll give you an example when I first started

[00:36:14] working I was considered the ice queen because I didn't smile I didn't say hello to people I am so not the ice queen and it was just because I was quiet and so on my development plan I said

[00:36:31] I'm going to say hi to five people every morning and so of course you know what's the magic of five I don't know it was just a number but it was hard if it was oh I got to say hi hi I

[00:36:41] didn't talk to I just had to say hello and then of course I got easy I was pretty easy to say hello to five people and then all of a sudden people saw me as more warm and approachable

[00:36:52] did I change who I was absolutely not but I actually became more of who I am by doing a slight behavior change and so when I see that in a client and they realize oh it wasn't so hard to

[00:37:03] speak up in a meeting doesn't mean you have to speak up and say here's the most earth-shattering you know idea and we're going to change your strategy because of this it could be as simple as

[00:37:13] asking a question or saying okay so what are our next steps that is all about speaking up and adding value with your voice so it is incredibly rewarding for me to see my clients in their

[00:37:26] own way not in the Jennifer way in their own way find the path that will make them successful and then when I see the joy of hey it wasn't so hard and the learning along the way because

[00:37:39] are obviously a lot of stumbles along the way but the learning to realize oh they would have never gotten there unless they figured out what worked for them and so what's so rewarding is

[00:37:50] for them to get there sooner than I got there so what do you know to be true about leading with quiet confidence? Hmm that the world needs introverts and introverted leaders and that a quiet leader can be successful absolutely can be successful so I know if you are

[00:38:12] true to yourself and you're open to different approaches in different ways to do things as long as you are true to yourself and what you want to do that you can be successful.

[00:38:25] What did you believe to be true early on about introversion that you've now learned is not true? It is funny when we started talking about this question of superhero power and I came to this

[00:38:42] conclusion wow actually my superhero power is lead with quiet confidence which first of all feels so weird to even call that a superhero power because I started out as I mentioned started out my

[00:38:56] career saying oh being quiet is bad I have to speak up more. I have to be something different than I am so to finally come to this conclusion that wow there is a superpower here it is pretty

[00:39:11] interesting where I took what I thought was a weakness and turned that into a superpower. I think the point that made me realize this was I was in a diversity training and there was a

[00:39:24] role play going on and there was a woman, a quiet woman who there was a role play of a decision being made there are five or six people in the room and we're an audience of about 100 and

[00:39:39] the woman said an idea and no impede attention and a couple minutes later a man says oh the same idea but no one recognizes that the woman had said it and the facilitator kind of

[00:39:52] pauses a role play and walks around the audience and by the way I'm here with my leadership team who are mostly white males and there were a handful of females in the audience and she walks around the

[00:40:04] room and happens to stand right in front of me and says it's about this point that someone in the audience starts to cry and I realized wow that was me so many years ago how many times

[00:40:20] that that happened to me and it was also a realization how look how far I have come and that was when I realized wow I've learned something I'm still who I am but I don't have as many of those

[00:40:35] situations as I used to what have I done it was a reflective reflection what have I done to be different and then that all came together when I decided to start coaching and I think connecting to

[00:40:48] introverted women to say how can I expedite their learning about themselves and how to get that interconfidence sooner than it took me so Jennifer what's the impact that your superhero power has on others? So obviously in my coaching business I focus on introverted women and have the

[00:41:11] impact there but a story I have from Microsoft is for my 50th birthday I got a strip of blue hair about this color blue and it was something I always wanted since like I was a teenager and I realized

[00:41:28] it just as like I'd older like I just wanted to do this and that is something that's important to me so of course my first day I was so nervous and walked in and meeting with the senior leader

[00:41:40] and he looks up at me and says oh you have different hair I was like wow I was so nervous and he totally accepted he was fine in fact I ended up presenting to our CEO with my blue hair and no one

[00:41:54] peeped and I remember someone sent me a note someone couple levels below me and said wow if you should can show up as you are true self here at this company then I can too so thank you for inspiring

[00:42:09] me and I realized well I did the blue hair for me but what an impact it can have on others so it really made me think as I went into my coaching business and coaching introverts how

[00:42:23] else can I have broader impact on others and that ripple effect and so I am launching a new workshop in January the lead with quiet confidence workshop for introverted women and we're going to go through

[00:42:39] some of the things we've talked about today it's about kind of the education of who you are as an introvert I'm identifying what you want as your leadership style getting into how do you find

[00:42:52] that inner wisdom that inner mentor that's within you and how do you kind of minimize the negative voices that we all have in our head and then some very tangible techniques to how to modify behavior

[00:43:07] that is much more focused on being successful in next-to-verted world well not changing who you are leveraging your strengths keeping your values and staying true to yourself so that's starting Wednesday January 17th and if you're interested in learning more just go to www lead with quiet

[00:43:28] confidence.com yeah in the org development talent consulting world where there's a lot of introverts there but they have to force themselves to show up as extroverts as their facilitating meetings as they're doing this type of group method like work and it's only

[00:43:50] recently that I become aware of how much more they have to work at showing up in these sessions than then I do but it's interesting like you know when people are talking about going to

[00:44:05] happy hour afterwards I'm right there with the other introverts being like nope I got to go home that's and that's a great example that there are all sorts of varieties you may be more

[00:44:18] meeting energy after a long day of workshops or you may want to go out and you know have a few drinks but you know for example for me like I have to be invited to a cocktail marty my

[00:44:30] oh no I have to go my much rather staying home with my book but yet when I go I have a great time so it's you know it's about being open to what your preferences are and then realizing where do you

[00:44:43] need to get your energy and making sure you're taking care of that. In fact I think it was one of my my introverted colleagues who talked about bringing their softest cozy as parapajamas whenever

[00:44:56] they traveled so they can leave that conference room get to the hotel room put on those comfy pajamas and then order room service and just spend the night in their and their and their cozyness. Absolutely that sounds wonderful that's what I'm gonna do after this.

[00:45:16] So Jennifer are you ready for the lightning round? Oh yes do I win a prize? Of course a free episode on the what do you know to be true podcast. So fill in the blank leading with quiet

[00:45:30] confidence is is true to myself. So who in your life demonstrates leading with quiet confidence for you? It's not really in my life but I would say Gandhi is an inspiration. He's an introvert but passionate

[00:45:45] and did not stop him from impacting the world. Yeah there's something I've noticed about introverts that when something is wrong, when something is not following the right process, when people are taking advantage of other people there's a strength that comes up straight from the

[00:46:06] heart from the soul and and I think Gandhi's a good example of that. Is there a practice or routine that helps you grow nurture or renew your ability to lead with quiet confidence?

[00:46:20] It's really about knowing your inner wisdom and your inner mentors. I go and visit in fact before I went on this podcast I visited my inner mentor and she said it's just a conversation

[00:46:33] and you're not doing it for yourself but you're doing it for all the other introverts. And so that is wisdom that came from me but really channeled through my inner mentor. Does your inner mentor have

[00:46:46] a strip of blue hair? Not now she's older and she has this really cool asymmetric gray hair cut. Love that, love that. Just your story of the strip of blue hair I think is a great example of

[00:47:02] leading and having an impact on others. Is there a book or movie that you recently consume that you would recommend that has leading with quiet confidence as a theme? Oh two books I love

[00:47:16] Susan Caine's Quiet. It is a highly researched book on introversion and so you'll get a lot of understanding they're introverted animals even sunfish. So I think that's in the first chapter. And the second I went through the facilitators training on playing big by Tara Moore.

[00:47:39] She is a one that brought from the CTI training coaching training institute, the Interventor which I use a lot of my coaching business and we'll tell you in the lead with quiet confidence workshop that is targeted to women not necessarily introverted women but women

[00:47:58] helping them play bigger. What is one thing that gets in your way of leading with quiet confidence? Oh myself myself myself myself. I said I said only one you listed three. Just put myself.

[00:48:14] Even just coming to this podcast I love you Roger you're amazing to talk to so easy to talk to but I was so nervous and so this idea of having confidence I'm just going to have the

[00:48:31] something I'm super passionate about is just checking in with myself and connecting to my purpose and the why and getting over all those negative feelings. I have to admit when I started introducing the segment as the lightning round realizing

[00:48:49] oh this introverts probably hate this. Yes. I feel sorry. That's okay. Okay so this is no longer the lightning round. This is the let's take a moment and pause. Okay. What word or phrase describes,

[00:49:10] what leading with quiet confidence feels like when it's had an impact. Two words I can't probably can't use confident and impact. I think impact is is probably the salient point is

[00:49:26] it's not just thoughts in your mind that are happening. It is that ability to get that out to the world whether it's stating it or taking action on it that does have impact and I think

[00:49:37] the sad case of being in an extroverted world is there is a lot of impact that is lost because introverts are not taking action, not speaking up. There's not a space for them to be who they are

[00:49:51] and so I think the ability to lead with quiet confidence both for introverts and extroverts allow everyone to have impact. And I'm sorry were you saying that that's a belief that

[00:50:06] introvert have or that that is a reality out there about? I think in many cases it's a reality if introverts are not sharing their perspective because of all the things that are going on

[00:50:20] in one's head. I can't say that. If someone already said that it's not a value, it's off point. It's not relevant when in fact you'll hear an introvert say, well I don't know if this is relevant they'll say some point and it's nails, nails the point that

[00:50:36] needs to be made and so that ability for all of us to share our perspectives. I think is it's going to have a much bigger impact on the world. If a listener wanted to ask you a question

[00:50:52] or follow up with you where do you want to point them to? Go to my website www lead with quiet confidence.com. Wonderful. Well Jennifer it's been an absolute pleasure talking with you.

[00:51:08] I think your examples and how you lead with confidence is probably really impactful for the women that you coach, probably really impactful for the men that you coach as well to get a greater sense of

[00:51:25] the powers of introverts and extroverts in the behaviors that help them both have a big impact. But I imagine there's a lot of people that get to see you in your leadership style, whether it's

[00:51:39] with a strip of blue hair or not. It has a really long lasting impact and creating space for them to step into their strength. Thank you for sharing all of that goodness with us. This has been

[00:51:54] a pleasure to have this conversation and to learn from you today. Yes thank you so much, Roger, for doing this for the world. Hmm. Well my audience isn't that big yet but you know

[00:52:06] yet I have confidence that it'll get bigger for sure. Thank you Jennifer. Take care. Thank you. Bye bye. I appreciate the level of clarity and deep and sincere awareness that Jennifer brought to the conversation and I'm so grateful that she chose to share her perspectives and her

[00:52:26] superhero power with us today. I love her story of how she became aware of her limiting beliefs around introversion and learned how to live into how her brain works and lead in an authentic way

[00:52:38] for her. I also love how she has made a pivot in her career to focus on helping others with her superhero power and enable others to lead with quiet confidence. I'm inspired by the level of

[00:52:52] conviction and the strength of her passion that she brings to this endeavor and it's not just passion, it's power and it's purposeful and it's such a great example of the types of people I love to learn

[00:53:05] from and spend time with. Jennifer thank you for bringing it today. Okay I'm going to say it loud for the extraverts in the back and I'm going to say it calmly for the introverts in the front.

[00:53:17] A better understanding of how people process information, engage in discussions and create at their best as critical for generating better ideas for making better decisions into achieve higher performance. So whether you're working on yourself, if you're coaching or managing

[00:53:36] a team, or if you're leading an organization, knowing your strengths and your style is critical to your success and for all those around you. A key learning or re-learning today is being

[00:53:51] able to discern the styles of others in order to create an environment that is inclusive for all styles to engage in the work and that's critical for being an effective leader unless your style is

[00:54:05] being an asshole. Then sorry, not sorry, the really should be no room in any organization for that style. This leads me to reflect on a few things that I encourage you to reflect on as well.

[00:54:16] When using my superhero power, is there an opportunity to change my approach to be more inclusive for both the introverted and extroverted styles in the room? And it's not so subtle hint to my extroverted friends. The second question may be more for us than for the introverts.

[00:54:33] How will I know what my superhero power has made a meaningful impact on both the introverts and the extroverts? Okay, if you like this episode, please do me a favor and share the episode with

[00:54:46] one other person. Thank you for doing that. What do you know to be true is a three-blue pens production? I'm your host, Roger Casner. We are recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Sequoamish people to discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose lands you

[00:55:01] are on go to native hyphenlands.ca. Okay, be well my friends. No, harmonic a plane. Thank goodness. Oh, I forgot to ask. Did you bring yours? Do you have like a saxophone or a trumpet nearby? Just a space. I cannot live up to that.

[00:55:24] That dude's an incredible guy. Yeah, I've totally forgotten your question now. It happens and I heard this from a yoga teacher and I thought it was really aggressive but I kind of liked it. It's our advent series or 80% water and we are made a star dust.

[00:55:44] And I did like the whole, I think she actually said enemies, enemies are 80% water and it's like Namaste. Like I got that. That's not right even understand that. Yeah, but but I love the part like hey, yeah, we're star dust. Like we got this.

[00:56:04] I think I need to start bringing clean eggs to this. There's some dust in here.