We're Already Connected | Mark Meadows on Rediscovering Connection

TRANSCRIPT

Mark: It doesn't feel like these things are really net new. It feels more like remembering what I've already known, a knowledge that, that is already there. And So, it's more about simply remembering what was already present. It's not an acquisition. It's a remembrance that's coming from within. Connection is just that.

We're already connected. Everything is connected. There isn't, there isn't separation. What we did as these feeble little human beings is we created categories and boxes and labels and frameworks and we parsed everything up and the universe can just laugh like trying to label and categorize stuff, but there isn't any separation.

So, it's more about accessing the connection that already exists that underlies everything. So, if I remember that you and I are already connected, that stranger, you know, across the street, we're already connected and that has a very different feeling.

Roger: Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the What Do You Know To Be True podcast. In these conversations, I talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill There's superhero power and the meaningful impact it has on others. The goal is not to try to emulate or hack our way to a new talent. The intention instead is to learn more about their experience with their superhero power So, that maybe we can learn something more about the special talent and purpose in each of us.

This conversation is with Mark Meadows and it's about his superhero power of connection. I know Mark to be a deeply contemplative and caring person. I've benefited from his amazing ability to create and hold space for me. And I know him to be a vulnerable. And loving person in that space to mark attends to conversations and ways that make you feel worthy, meaningful, and significant.

And as he shares, this isn't a superhero power that we necessarily have to build and create. It's one already inside each of us. If you're ready, let's dive in.

Hey, Mark. Thank you for joining me here today. 

Mark: It's good to be here. Roger, 

Roger: My friend, I don't know what we're talking about and I don't care. I don't care. Cause I know every conversation with you, part of your superhero power and I'll die on this Hill is that you make other people feel worthwhile and significant and having a conversation.

You hold space. In such a powerful way that just allows energy to flow like frictionlessly. Between one another. And So, I'll talk to you about anything. 

Mark: Well, I was wondering if we were, if you wanted me to share my superhero power yet, I want to be a really good guest for you, but we're easing into that.

Roger: Yeah, no, no, no. This, this is, this is beautiful. But do you know what your superhero power is that we're going to talk about? Don't tell me, but do you know? 

Mark: I am aware of it. 

Roger: Mark, what's important for us to know about Mark Meadows? 

Mark: What I care about is how I make people feel. I mean, I don't assume responsibility for other people's feelings.

I got over that a while ago, but I know what I can evoke and invite in other people, that sense of connection, uh, what you referenced in terms of, Holding space, creating spaces where people feel seen, where people feel heard. That's what brings me So, much joy. That's what gives me a real sense of aliveness and vitality is that kind of connection with people.

Roger: So, you've recently had an essay published in a anthology called Love Notes from the Soul. And your piece was entitled The Recovering Intellectual. Can you tell us a little bit more about that essay? 

Mark: That essay, more than representing a point in time, I think represents an ongoing unfolding for me of Some realizations that I had that keep showing up.

I've read that essay aloud a couple times to people. I've shared it with people. It's an essay that keeps on giving. I'm surprised because it's resonated with a lot of people. That's one of the things I love about the possibility of writing is again, its ability to connect people, to take something that's very Seemingly personal and then find the universal in it, you know, that moment of I thought it was just me.

No, welcome to humanity. And So, I like that because there's a sense of not, not aloneness. I feel less alone. Other people who read it and I connect with field, maybe less alone with this idea and it's not just, it's not necessarily just. Men who can identify with it. I think this idea of recovering intellectual, I remember the first time I used those two words, I was.

Introducing myself, kind of like I introduced myself here briefly, there was a group of facilitators who were meeting for the first time, and they were being gathered by this really brilliant, connected facilitator. And there was this generous invitation to share Why we were there, why we were in that room.

I was in a pretty raw and broken open place. I was going through, uh, the final stages of a divorce at that time. And So, I showed up feeling pretty raw and jet lagged and just, I have nothing to lose. What if I showed up in this group without trying to make any kind of impression? And I just showed up in all of my realness and all of my flaws.

And. One of the things that I named is I said, Hi, my name is Mark. I'm a recovering intellectual, and I didn't even really know exactly what that meant. Of course, in this group, I couldn't let go of wanting to impress, you know, some of the people wanting to make a good impression amongst peers and other facilitators and coaches, and I wanted to be real.

I wanted to be seen. And that's the thing is that's, that's the choice is you can't even have the opportunity to be seen if you're not willing to, I'm not willing to be open. You can't be seen. You know, it takes, it takes kind of an alignment, right? Of an openness to, okay, I'm visible. Here I am. This is me.

And it takes people willing to witness you to be open to seeing you. Uh, and So, in that moment of saying, I'm a recovering intellectual, what I meant at that time is. I had this overdeveloped sense of intellect, this overdeveloped analytical set of abilities that is really well conditioned, really well rewarded in our society, in a lot of spheres, and I found that it was smothering.

A lot of my other forms of intelligence, I found that it was smothering, obscuring, and kind of hiding this part of me that was just this really intuitive and emotional and caring and soulful human being. And I felt like my life and the way I'd been leading it was a bit askew, was a bit out of balance.

And So, to be able to recognize, not necessarily change quite yet, but to be able to recognize. I've led a lot of my life in my head, and I want to live in the fullness of the world and feel and sense and touch and taste and see and just, you know, be in the world for all of the enjoyment and the discomfort and all of that, being able to open to all of those experiences and not just sit in this little skull sized kingdom of my head.

And, uh, So, that's to me what Recovering intellectual started out as, uh, as a, as a concept. And then I just kept playing with it over the next couple of years until I worked with a writing coach and worked it into an essay. 

Roger: Thank you for sharing that. I love that notion of you cannot be seen. Until you make yourself visible, it speaks to integration.

It speaks to the flow that it, it, it can't just go one way. 

Mark: Yeah. There was a guy in that session, guy by the name of Eric, who came up to me after I introduced myself, we were on a break and he walked up to me and he said, I heard the way you introduced yourself and here you are hiding in plain sight.

What? Hiding in plain sight. And he's like, yeah, like you want to be seen and you don't want to be seen. And both of them are showing up at the same time. It's almost like you step in and you kind of name like, Hey, here's me. And then kind of like you duck out. And I think that that's, that's a very real, not just Mark experience.

That's a very real human experience of this ambivalence we have. This longing to belong that we all have. And yet the fear that that comes in of, but what if I'm rejected? Or what if these people don't really like me? What if they don't want to be with me? What if I don't belong? What if I'm not worthy of being with this group of people?

So, there's this approach and avoid approach and avoid. That happens of, I really want to be with these people. I want to feel part of the group. I want to feel absorbed and lose this. Independent sense of self. I want to feel that kind of connection and be part of something greater than myself. And yet there's this fear that sinks in as well of like, yeah, but what about my ego?

What about me? I'm special. I'm unique. I'm an individual. I don't want to lose that. And So, I think that there's this very natural kind of tension that happens for everybody. And that's one of the things that I think Eric was, was naming. It was this, you're hiding in plain sight. I see you. And I was like, whoa, you do.

I didn't give a lot of information about myself, but it was almost like some part of myself outing myself of like, I want to be seen, but wow, it's scary. It's about sinking into the moment without this conscious self monitoring, right? This is one of the things that was very formative for me. W.E.B. Dubois referred to it as this, this dual consciousness that particularly is, uh, among marginalized communities. He was, of course, talking about a black community at that time and having grown up by racial, there was always this, for me, a sense of monitoring and scanning the environment and trying to figure out how do I fit in?

Is this safe? Is it not safe? This marginal Kind of identity of I'm not white, but maybe I'm not black enough and I don't fit here, but I do fit here and it's about I can fit in anywhere. But where do I actually belong? And So, learning a lot about this kind of chameleon approach to blending in into all different kinds of groups, no matter where I was.

in California, in Massachusetts, in Maine, in New York, just this very flexible identity and this dual consciousness of always this kind of monitoring of, I, I'm seeing myself through somebody else's eyes. How am I perceived? And there's a very high, Cost and an amount of energy that that takes up as opposed to just simply being instead of observing myself being, I don't know, it's kind of a heady kind of meta kind of thing, but.

I think everybody's capable of doing it. Everybody has some level of self consciousness of thinking about, Oh, how are people perceiving me? How are people noticing me? Surprise. They really don't give a shit. They're not paying attention to you at all. They're busy doing the same thing. So, that's a lovely realization.

And I think that there's a, there's a slightly different quality for. People of color, uh, in terms of navigating different places with varying degrees of safety or threat, where it's something that we learn how to do for survival of, am I going to be a threat? Should I wear my hood up? Should I dress like this?

Should I talk like this? You know, how do I show up? How do I code switch? So, that people know I'm one of you. I'm supposed to be here. 

Roger: You would introduce me to the book, You Belong, by Sebene Selassie who, you know, starts off with the premise of this isn't a how to book of how to belong. You already belong.

Like we all, we all come from the same place. We all come from, you know, this, this amazing, you know, explosion of elements and atoms that happened billions of years ago. We all, as humans have the desire to be seen, to be. recognized, to be loved, um, to have a connection. So, we already belong. There's nothing we need to do.

Um, and yet she also  shares, um, a, a Buddhist paradox of, um, we all, we all belong and yet we experience life through differences. We see differences as, as a way of coping, surviving, um, wanting to, wanting to be recognized as individuals. Um, and, and I think, I think about a lot of what I learned in that book, um, when, when we talk about belonging and the, the struggles that we all go through, um, at different, different levels and different experiences and context, but, you know, belonging seems to be something that's, that's also  part of the human experience that we want to belong.

Um, and yet. You know, maybe it's, yeah, sometimes, um, the, the, the, the way we think about belonging being one of those barriers to feeling that we belong. 

Mark: Yeah, absolutely. It's very much related to this idea of connection and being wired for connection. I think connection is, you know, really connected there.

Connection is connected with, with belonging. You know, we are herd animals. We survive together. That's how we've survived. And So, the newer experiences of this illusion of separateness, this illusion of independence, these ideals of I'm a self made person, it's just that it's an illusion. Nobody figures out anything.

By themselves, nobody survives alone. And So, being able to realize that it is our more natural state, actually, to be in groups, to be in community, to be mutually dependent, uh, on each other. I'm still learning that and unlearning the kind of independence thing that gets drilled into, I think most of us right here in Western civilization.

Roger: In your essay, you talk about being. wanting to lean into curiosity and be more interested in coming up with questions and knowing the answers. Um, and you're also  the founder of Terra Nova development. Uh, could you tell us a little bit about what is Terra Nova and how it connects with your value of curiosity?

Mark: I hadn't necessarily connected those two before, uh, my value of curiosity and Terra Nova development. Terra Nova development is My own organization that I started recently. It's a name that occurred to me almost a dozen years ago and had some importance to me. Of course, it means new earth and I was at that particular time moving with my family, a 2 year old and a 4 year old, and we're moving from northern Virginia to the Seattle area and it felt like a new beginning in many ways.

And So, as I was just starting my coaching journey and trying to figure out what I was going to do in consulting, I thought, ah, why don't I start a little LLC? See how that goes. This is just before you and I met. And So, I picked that name, it resonated with me. And then fast forward to just a few months ago, when I transitioned from my place of employment to this more liminal space.

I looked up if the, The name was still available. I could still, you know, use it here in Washington State and sure enough, it was, it was still available. And I was like, it's still true. There's, you know, I, I see things less in a way that's linear and much more in terms of cyclical. And I was like, here I am again, you know, back between formal jobs, between corporate jobs, but, and some things are the same, but a lot of things are different.

Who am I now? I don't know. And Terra Nova felt like one of those anchors in terms of this is still true, uh, in terms of my values, what's important to me, uh, where does curiosity play into that? Back to your question. I'm just infinitely curious about people, about what drives them, about what they care about, what's made them who they are.

and their capacity to change, to be more conscious of what's not, not just a curiosity for me, but helping them be curious about themselves about curious about, well, why do you think, why do you think you did that? Or what's, what's important to you now. So,  uh, I specialize in me search, like a lot of people, like we have these topics that are really, really curious to them and we research them and we call them me search because guess what?

We're fascinated with ourselves and there's some applicability, of course, to other people. But yeah, that's my area of, of me search, I think is a curiosity about. What drives human behavior, and that's my own and it's other people's and then spreading that curiosity. Um, and I think Terra Nova is 1 of the vehicles to be able to do.

That is to help people be curious about themselves, about the systems and settings that they operate in and helping them. consider more of what they really want, what's important to them. I, while it's true that it's about helping people be curious, again, it's more about remembering it and practicing it, because I think we all start out curious.

And then through a lot of conditioning and education systems, that curiosity just gets, ground down, you know, like as soon as you, you know, are a two year old or three year old, a four year old, you know, your parents, your caregivers get tired of you asking why and all the questions. And I think people are innately curious.

And So, it's less about Getting people to be curious as a new thing and remembering that innate curiosity that's always been there and then just stirring that again and be like, remember when you just asked why, what was that like? Do you remember what that was like? And what would that be like to find that again to not have somebody say, we don't have time for that or nevermind.

Just keep moving or no, you're not supposed to. You're not supposed to keep asking questions. Now's the time to just take action. Stop with the questions. And So, it's about, I think, remembering and accessing again that innate curiosity and being a stimulus to that. That's what we are. It's not about, hey, here's this curiosity thing.

You should have that. It's more about evoking that curiosity that you already have. That's already there. 

Roger: That feels So, true. And, and, you know, we even have part of our practices and methods are, um, knowing that people are going to ask the question, why, So, let's, let's answer. You know, why are we doing this?

Why is this good for the organization? Why is this good for me? Like, you know, and then a bunch of how questions come after that. But I love the idea of tapping into that innate curiosity and recognizing it's there. It's not very far under the surface. And we've been having kind of some fun with this. I don't know what superhero power you want to talk about today.

So, now it's time for the big reveal. What is the big reveal? What's the superhero power we're talking about? 

Mark: I think it's connection. I look at connection and I experience it as really multifaceted. It's almost like there are these layers of connection that I'm experiencing over time. And. Early connection was really about an emotional connection about a level of trust.

And our 1st connections, of course, or to our moms to our caregivers, maybe to siblings to, like, a very tight inner circle. So, there's emotional level of connection. That's just in a instinctual. And then for me, then the progression. Or the change was more towards connection, connection between ideas, intellectual connection of being able to see and recognize patterns, patterns of behavior, patterns in systems.

And how do those things connect to each other? And just the fun of that, right? Just the intellectual play and that, aha, that spark, those dendrites just lighting up with new connections. That's fun. And that's intoxicating. That's amazing. And So, there's that level of connection between ideas, uh, that, that I still have.

Uh, just overdeveloped and So, trying to find other forms of connection. So,  as I was reflecting on this, I saw, all right, then there's the connection that I have with people like you, these, these very deep and real connections and I foster those when I, when I think about. The people I really love about love and care about in my life.

I don't go about like, how's my network? How's the strength of my network? I just, I'm the one that reaches out to people. I'm the one that says you're on my mind. How are you really? How are you? And. I think that's part of what maybe the superhero power is about is you don't even know it. It's just like, oh, that's just what I do is like, I maintain those connections.

I maintain those relationships. I nurture them and I have them for a very, very long time. Might be 20 years, might be 30 years, but the longevity of those relationships and how much they matter to me, they just keep getting richer and richer, uh, and aging well like us. So, there's that, the connection that's interpersonal between us.

Then I thought about it in terms of there's, you know, connection as well. The connection that I can bring to groups of people. And this one is one that I'm developing more. It's like, what is the connection that people feel to one another? And how do I. How do I enable that? In what ways do I affect that?

Um, and it can be through a lot of intention. It could be through liberating structures. It could be through a variety of methods and it's. A little bit like music. It's not about the technique. Nobody, you know, listens to a piece of music and says, Oh, wow, Mick Jagger really nailed that F like, like, people aren't thinking about the precise notes.

They're thinking about, they're, they're appreciating with the way it feels. And So, when technique, when frameworks, when the scaffolding of gathering people. Disappears and recedes into the background. All you're left with is the magic that people feel the connection that they feel. And I had that a couple of weeks ago.

I wasn't facilitating, but I was part of this group of 20 people, bunch of organization development practitioners from the age of 32 to the age of 82. And I'm with these people and. There was a palpable energy and connection between people in that room that I got to participate in. And there were at least two people who have done kinds of energy work that one of the women joked about.

She's like, I'm a witch. Well, you're, she's an OD person, right? And she's a coach. And there are these labels, like we might say, sure, she's from California and that's very woo woo. Bye. What becomes incontrovertible is the way that people feel. So, you can throw whatever label you want on it. You can be dismissive and say like, Oh, that's that woo woo junk.

But did you feel something that made you feel alive? Did you feel a sense of connection and that everything in life was going to be okay?

And to me that kind of, there aren't adequate labels. It's to me, like words sometimes diminish the experience and I don't like to talk about them. So, I'll just say, Oh, well it was ineffable. I used that word with you the other day. It's kind of like my, my outward of just, it's an affable thing. You just have to experience it, but you call it spirit.

I call it maybe. A, uh, kind of sacred space and, you know, when it's present, because there's just something where you feel outside of time, time disappears and you're just focused and present with the other people you're with and. You know, that you just feel So, alive and connected and a sense of oneness with those people.

What 

Roger: or who inspired you to have the superhero power of connection? 

Mark: I remember when I was a kid, probably seven, eight years old, and my dad was this really gregarious, really friendly, uh, kind of guy. People would affectionately call him Big John. Big John. And I would notice how he was able to connect with anybody.

He would, you know, be in the checkout line, you know, at the grocery store and he'd know everything about Deborah the checker and he'd come back home and he'd regale my mom and the rest of the family with all of these things and she's like, great. Did you get eggs?

Uh, no, but wow, Deborah has an amazing life story. And, and, and he just loved being able to connect with people. He had a way of drawing people in that was really powerful. Uh, I'm emotional talking about that because it's,

it's not easy to look at Some of my dad's gifts because I learned to become suspicious of connection because I knew aspects of it could be Fabricated that I saw Faux connection used in a manipulative way. And So, I smile and it brings me some joy to remember and to have seen it in a really pure form that was, that really was about an interest in another human being and a graciousness and a welcoming and an opening for someone to just.

Be completely seen. And I think maybe that's why. I've maybe been slow sometimes in the past to embrace it because I saw some of the, I don't think it's an innate dark side to connection. Connection is pure and it's how we're, how we're wired. And it's, it's a wonderful thing. I also  just know how. It can be misused, you know, to accept that gift, to see how powerful it could be, and what it is, and then to try to strip away the way in which it was kind of tainted, I think, uh, later, um, could be a hard thing, um.

But that's, that's how I, that's how I remember it seeing, seeing connection and, um, at least, yeah, in the, in the very early days that. 

Roger: Hmm. Thank you for sharing that. That's beautiful. And this idea of being able to recognize gifts from complicated people. And complicated contacts and complicated relationships.

Um, it's not easy to do. And it actually makes me think about positive intelligence and what Shirzad is talking about in. You know, looking, he runs us through this exercise. I know you've been through the program. You've, you've done this where you, you get that childhood picture and you think about, and it's your own childhood picture of yourself to be clear.

And you think about like the innate goodness, the pureness of that. Um, of that person. And then you empathize that, um, in yourself. And So, it's a way of dampening down the saboteurs and then you do it for someone else. And depending on how brave and courageous you are, you might take some really complicated people.

And thinking about the innate goodness and, and the purity of that person when they were a young kid and, and can we, can we acknowledge that, yeah, that, that, that goodness, that pureness, that wholeness that's inside all of us and carry on, you know, seeing each other as, as beautiful five year olds. Um, that's, that's tough to do with people that, you know, we work with people that, you know, Yeah, live in the neighborhood, but to do that with people, we have complicated relationships, lifelong relationships.

That's that takes work. That takes courage to do that. 

Mark: Yeah, absolutely. 

Roger: Do you have a framework or process you follow when you are trying to create connection? 

Mark: What I'm learning in life right now is. It doesn't feel like these things are really net new. It feels more like remembering what I've already known, what I've, what I sense, and in innate wisdom, a knowledge that, that is already there.

And So, it's more about simply remembering what was already present. It's not like, Oh, this is new. It's not an acquisition. It's a remembrance that's coming from within. And So, for me, Connection is just that we're already connected. Everything is connected. There isn't there isn't separation. What we did is these feeble little human beings as we created categories and boxes and labels and frameworks and we parsed everything up and the universe can just laugh and be like, oh, that's cute.

Look, the humans are at it again, like trying to label and categorize stuff, but there isn't any separation. So, it's more about accessing the connection that already exists that underlies everything. So, if I remember that you and I are already connected, that stranger, you know, across the street, we're already connected and that has a very different feeling.

It's like, it's similar to belonging where I remember going to the same group that I met with this, this professional development group a year ago. And I had this thought, because I was, you know, had maybe read Sevene Selassie's book, You Belong Again, and I had this idea, like, what, what would it be like if I showed up here with The mentality and the belief that I already belong.

I already belong. I don't have to earn my place here. I don't have to impress these people. I don't have to act a certain way. What does it feel like to make the fundamental assumption that I already belong here? So, I see that, that related to what if we're already connected. It's simply about surfacing that underlying connection that already exists.

And So, that has a different feeling because it doesn't feel like striving, like I have to create connection. All I have to do is step back and allow that connection to resurface and to acknowledge it. And So,  if I were throwing together a framework in real time, that connection, sure, it comes from demonstrating vulnerability.

And that's it. that genuineness, that authenticity about I'm going to show you really who I am, what I'm about, and I'm going to share that with you, and I'm going to invite you to do the same. And I will say you were always in choice. You may not want to do that, but that makes it safe enough. Not everybody wants to go to the same level.

Not everybody wants to. You know, metaphorically naked, we've been So, cut off from this connection that we So, much want of remembering that we're part of this fragile human experience and to realize that other people are going through the same thing. And So, you find these universals and, but it creates this deep connection that strips away all of these artificial barriers and differences.

It's the felt And lived experience that people have that is very real and they will remember that and they take that away. 

Roger: Yeah. As far as the framework, I know you were just coming up with it, uh, live on the spot, step one, recognize we're already connected. Step two, go first. Yeah. So, how is your superhero power of connection connected to your sense of purpose?

Mark: It's, it's intricately. Connected, the two are absolutely inseparable. 

Speaker 3: Hmm. 

Mark: I don't see any, any difference because there's this universal and personal experience of longing for connection. If I can foster that for people to give them the felt experience of genuine connection. A synonym for that would be love, for them to feel love.

Hey, maybe that's another thing, it's like, connection requires being willing to slow down. To be really, completely present, not thinking about what's next, or how do I get through this conversation, or I need to go do the next thing. But there's a real generosity. In that invitation of not rushing away, like really being with really, really being with that person that you're with.

That's my purpose. It's not something that's separate of, Ooh, how am I going to create that? How do I do that in my vocation? Where is that in the vocari intersection? Right? Like what's my Venn diagram for connection? How do I make some money off of this shit? 

Roger: How do I get more likes on connection? 

Mark: Exactly.

So, yeah, it's just, it's inextricably bound up with my purpose. 

Roger: Yeah. You hear that the most valuable thing we could give someone else is time. I don't know if that's true. I think it's how we use that time. And if we come with that sense of wanting to enhance connection, wanting to, you know, come, come with love, that seems a lot more valuable with time because we can choose to use our time in a lot of different ways.

Mark: Yeah, exactly. I think time cheapens it a little bit. It's like, it's not just time. It's attention. 

Roger: I think that idea is actually trying to like, you know, this idea that our, our, our desire for human connection and love is just under the surface. And we talk about it. It's like, Hey, yeah, let's give each other some time.

Let's hang out. When we talk 

Mark: about quality time. Yeah, it's like, Mike, should there be other kinds of time? Hey, you want to spend some garbage, like distracted time together? Let's do that. That sounds fun. Bring your phone. 

Roger: And that is what we, you know, not you and I, but you know, in general, that's, you know, it's, it's, it's what we see a lot of.

So, Mark, what do you know to be true? about connection. 

Mark: I want more of it. I want more of it to be present in the world. It's a innate longing that people have and for people to feel okay about acknowledging it because it I think it is like there's such a loneliness epidemic that's well, well known So, much separation.

And I think the antidote to that is people's opportunity to connect. Um, and there are lots of ways to be able to do it, but fundamentally knowing what it feels like to be connected to another person, to a group of people. To even to nature, to feeling connected to this universe and to this experience of being alive in the here and the now, people need to remember that and they need to experience it because it's what we've collectively forgotten sometimes.

Roger: Why do you think it is that we forgot that? 

Mark: I think technology had a role in that. I think culture has a role in that. And there's this prioritization and this focus on me as an individual. And I think we ended up over indexing on that and rewarding that. I think that when people are really honest with themselves, there's disillusionment about that.

There's kind of a promise in that. Stand out and be unique and be separate and be alone and, and be in competition and in comparison more than connection. And I think that has a superficial allure of like, yeah, that seems pretty compelling. That sounds cool. And when I get that, I know it'll feel great.

And then it doesn't, it doesn't, there's not the payoff of like, wait. I've achieved, I've stood out, I've done this, I got all the likes, I got, you know, all the things. We try to accrue that, but it's, it doesn't fill that void. It doesn't fill that hole and that desire for connection, connection to, I'm going to go a little further here where I think it's, there's a, there's a longing.

And I think that's, I'm using that word very intentionally because it's, people fear separateness both I think at an evolutionary level that's about survival, but I think at an existential level of that. angst that can happen of separateness, separateness from the divine, separateness from spirit, separateness from anything of that's, that's terrifying as, as a feeling that people can have.

And So, I think that there are a whole host of reasons why we've gotten away from connection and because it's scary. It's something that the more you do it, the it's a practice, right? And it's scary because I think it goes back to you can't connect if you're not willing to be seen and being seen in all of your flaws and messiness.

Roger: So,  what did you believe early on about connection that you've come to learn is not true? 

Mark: I think there's some part of me that, Like anybody else feared connection because when you feel a level of connection That means that there's risk there that it can be broken that that connection can go away. So, there's there's pain there There's the possibility of loss There's some part of me that made that mental calculation years ago that said, is it really worth it?

Because to really feel a level of connection with another person means that they're, we will all die at some point. Everyone that we love will die. And So, there's that impermanence of, ooh, can I really trust, can I really appreciate and enjoy this connection? Or is it just easier to just kind of keep it a little more surface, like, I'm connected enough.

What did I believe? I think I believed that connection was not necessarily to be trusted, because it could be manipulated, it could be misused. Uh, you can manipulate people's feelings if they feel connected to you, um, people can exploit that. And So, I, there were times when I distrusted it, or then there's just the fear of the, it will go away at some point.

Yeah, that's true, but it doesn't mean that it's not worth it because if you don't get to experience connection in this life, then how is it worthwhile? So, at a really cosmic sort of level. And I love this, this perspective, uh, cause it feels So, warm. And to me, this epitomizes connection is the Ram Dass quote of, we're all just walking each other home.

We're all just walking each other home.

Roger: What does that mean to you?

Mark: That simple, that simple phrase encapsulates So, much for me, which is, it's It's a metaphor, and if you think about walking somebody home, it says we're all going to some place. We're all going home. We are all on the overused word journey, but we are all having this human experience. And we're not meant to do it alone.

We're meant to accompany each other. We don't have to do it alone. And that level of care and making sure that, Roger, I want to make sure you get home safely. You know? And sometimes that, when I really think about walking someone home, it's because it's after dark and it's scary. And you want somebody to be safe and you want to be able to protect them.

And you want somebody to be able to protect you in life. You know? And that's the way life is and sometimes excruciating and sometimes gorgeous and sometimes stunning and So, many different things. And don't you want to be with people who are walking you home and to know that you're not alone? Ah, So, that's what it means to me.

Roger: I love that. And I love, I love this idea of, you know, whatever experience we had that we're walking home from, We don't want it to end. We're going out of our way. Maybe it's taking care of each other out of a sense of, of, of safety, but it's also  like we're spending more time together. Like that dinner, the party wasn't enough.

I need this extra time with you. 

Mark: Yeah. You just want to keep extending it because you're still, you're still together. Right. And I love that. Like there's, well, we could go on, but I, I, uh, I love that because like I hadn't thought about thought just like going home, where are you coming from? What is the experience you had?

And So, I do think about this in a, in a literal way of like, you know, There's that like, think of like a balmy kind of summer night in Seattle, and you're just coming from this event and like, you feel So, energized and alive. And, um, I remember driving, uh, we were in the car and I was driving to the Highlands with my family.

My kids and we've got the windows rolled down and sunroof open and we're headed up to the Highlands to try to catch the second day to see if, you know, the northern lights make an appearance and then it was like, I just feel So, excited. I feel So, alive. Right? And it was like this anticipation and joy in this really just kind of unfettered reaction to the.

The, uh, aliveness and the crackling energy and electricity of the moment of, like, do you remember what that was like, like, staying out late and, like, if you lived on the East Coast, it was like you'd watch the fireflies would come out and, like, nighttime was just beautiful. Magic. That's when everything happened.

And if you think about walking somebody home after an event or some special time together or a concert or whatever, it's like, oh, can you believe this happened? And this and like, you're savoring it again, right? It's like, you still have that lingering, uh, feeling that sensation. It's almost like, That taste in your mouth is still present of, like, that amazing chocolate, that great meal or whatever.

And So,  like, that walking home, you're still savoring that experience that you had together, or the way that you and I can savor what it meant to be in the sphere and watching you two together. And then, you know, You know, hiking in Zion and to be able to savor that and walk each other home and to have at this point in our lives, those opportunities to be able to look back and see not just where are we going and what does it mean to go home at some point, but where are we coming from?

And how do we look back together in a way? 

Roger: So, Mark, are you ready for the lightning round? Bring it on. Fill in the blank. Connection is magic. Who in your life provides connection for you? My partner. How do you not say everyone? I was going to say, how do you not say everyone? It's everyone. 

Mark: It is everyone.

That's why I paused. I was like, I have connection with everyone. 

Roger: But, you know, shout out to leave. Is there a practice or routine that helps you grow, nurture, or renew your ability to help others with connection? 

Mark: Being in nature. So, when I have space to myself and I can just connect to myself and connect to nature, then I have this well being.

This reservoir of energy that I can bring to being with people. 

Roger: Is there a book or movie that you recently consumed and would recommend that has connection as a theme? 

Mark: I would probably just go back to You Belong from Sebene Selassie. I think that's So, much about connection. 

Roger: The beautiful thing about the superhero power you picked is like everyone, everything all the time would be an answer for all these questions, every movie, every book.

It's about connection. Exactly. What is one thing that gets in your way? Shame 

Mark: and some kind of critical, critical self talk I think can get in the way of connecting because then I've made it about me instead of about the other person or about the experience that we get to have together. So,  the more I focus on what the other person might be experiencing or being present for them and out of my own head and my own feelings and self reference, the more I'm capable of connection.

Roger: I'm curious about, do you have a practice that you do when you feel unworthy? Of connection. I 

Mark: have a few readings that I do, um, particular and most recently, um, Tara Brock's Trusting the Gold is a really powerful metaphor, um, and story that it's about remembering we were, we are always worthy or always worthy of love and connection.

There's nothing that can change that. And So, remembering that. And trusting that gold, that goodness that each of us always have, and sometimes just calling a friend who is amazing and really, really, really knows me and can remind me of, yeah, all that other stuff that all that chatter, um, that's not really true, right?

Those are the saboteurs at work. The gremlins are thrown a fiesta. 

Roger: What word or phrase describes what connection feels like when it's had a positive impact? 

Mark: It feels like overflowing joy, like in the, in the body, it feels like the perfect level of satiation. Like after you've just, you haven't overeaten, but you've had, you know, several course meals and you've had a dessert, you feel a fullness.

It's just like, it's a contentment that feels like, oh, there's no void, there's no hole, there's no craving, there's no hunger. It's just feeling absolutely physically and emotionally content. And it's like after, it's like, I'm not hungry. There's nothing that I want. I don't want to change anything. Cause it's not, you can't contain it.

It's So, big and So, expansive that it's just like breaking through. Yeah. 

Roger: I, I have 

Mark: people see that and can feel that, right? 

Roger: Yeah. It's like, I have So, much joy. I cannot contain it anymore. It's like, it's pouring out. Like here, here, take some joy. Like I can't, I can't, I can't hold onto it. Yeah. Mark, this conversation feels like overflowing joy.

Uh, um, this, you know, your ability to connect with no pun intended with what's true for you, your ability to share and the conviction. Of the well chosen words that you pick to describe how this, this superhero power shows up in your life and the work that you do to get there and to, uh, recognize it and to create the space for others to, to, to, to welcome them in and to connect, um, is.

Definitely a superhero power that, um, uh, you know, we can all, we all, those who know you benefit from, and you are a wonderful role model for showing us how we can do that for others as well. So, I am super grateful for you for being you. Um, I am super grateful that we are connected and, um, thank you for taking time to join us today and share, uh, what you know to be true about connection.

Mark: Oh, thank you, Roger. It has been So, enjoyable to savor this time, to savor our connection, to deepen our connection even more, and you've helped me appreciate and accept even more of the superpower. You know, I think that there's sometimes if you go really to like the Marvel series and like the stories of superheroes, you know, there's, there's a journey that they go through, like, I don't want this, it's not mine and rejecting it or not being able to control it the way they want or whatever.

And this conversation has reinforced for me and created an opportunity to more fully embrace and accept. This ability that I have and to see it more clearly. And I take that as a real gift. So, thank you for your generosity.

Roger: Mark. Thank you. Take care. All right. Bye.

Thank you, Mark. It's wonderful to be connected with you. Some might say it's an, uh, ineffable feeling to be connected with you. Reflecting on this conversation, it leads me to ask myself, where am I putting up barriers to create more connections with others? What do you know to be true as a three blue pens production?

And I'm your host, Roger Kastner. We're recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people to discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you might be on, you can go to native hyphen lands. ca. Okay. Be well, my friends.