Keeping the Human in Human Systems in Focus | Pay Attention with Kellee Franklin

WDYKTBT 22 - Pay Attention with Kellee Franklin

Kellee: People often ask me about leadership and differentiating yourself and, and those sorts of things. And what I know to be true is the best differentiator is showing up and listening and attending to people. Technology is going to continue to change and evolve and impact our systems. We are going to need organizational leaders.

that understand people more than ever. We, you know, need great technologists, but the technology is going to impact human systems. And I'm always cognizant whether I'm teaching graduate students or whether I'm working with clients to really reference it as human systems. And that's just as a reminder that our organizations and our companies are comprised of humans.

Roger: Hi, I'm Roger Kastner and welcome to the What Do You Know To Be True? podcast. In these conversations, we talk with ordinary people about their extraordinary skill, their superhero power and the meaningful impact it has on others. The goal is not to try to emulate or hack our way to a new talent.

Instead, the intention is to learn more about their experience with their superhero power. And in doing so, maybe we can learn something about the special talent in each of us that makes us unique and connects with our purpose. This conversation is with Kelly Franklin and her superhero power to pay attention.

Maybe in a world where we just want to be seen and heard, the most powerful thing we can give someone is our attention. And from there, what becomes possible when they feel truly seen. And when you've been doing the scene, how powerful can that be? If you're ready, let's dive in.

Hey Kelly. It's nice to see you. Thanks for joining.

Kellee: It's really good to see you, Roger. Thanks for the invitation to spend some time with you today. I really appreciate it.

Roger: It's my pleasure. I'm so grateful that we, um, I think it's, it's the LinkedIn networks and algorithm that have brought us together. Um, what I know to be true about you is you're involved in a lot of different subjects.

And you always have the most, if not a very intelligent thing to say, thought provoking questions and comments about those topics. There's a lot about Kelly, um, that, that I, that I know about and a lot that I don't know about. So please tell us about Kelly Franklin.

Kellee: Well, you're extraordinarily kind and I appreciate that very much.

Broadly, I am a business transformation and innovation consultant and have done that for the betterment of my career. I also do a lot of teaching at a number of different academic institutions, uh, within the United States, as well as internationally. Um, but how I got there, um, is probably more interesting than, than just that broad, um, headline.

Roger: So most of our guests will sit at this interesting intersection of two or three interesting topics. Um, Kelly, I, you know, when I, when I look at your profile, when I look at the things you talk about, You know, you're at a six or seven way intersection when you add up all the significant work that you're doing, whether it's in org development or leader development, coaching, strategy, technology, human centered design, all the education and instruction you do.

There's probably a few that I'm not aware of yet. What do you find to be that through line? And maybe it goes back to that, those moments earlier on, but what do you find to be that through line of all the different work that you have done and are still doing?

Kellee: And I think that's, I think that's a great question.

And actually, I, uh, I take that as a great compliment, um, at the kind of multifaceted way that not only I see the world, um, but the way that I see the work that I've done and continue to do. I think it does come back to a quote. That I've always resonated with by Owen Waters, which speaks to the fundamental thread of human potential, which I think holds all of those things together.

And the quote is in a universe created by infinite being, each one of us has by design, infinite possibilities. And so whether I've been working with organizational systems on very sophisticated. Technologies or all the way over to global humanitarian organizations. The thing that kind of hangs all of those systems together are the humans that reside within those amazing systems.

And, you know, uh, I really truly believe in the infinite possibilities of every single individual. And I'm amazed every time I get the honor of serving within these different organizations, and I learn not only every time I go within these systems, but when I teach, um, at different graduate institutions.

And I always tell my clients and my students that it is a high privilege because I feel like I learned just as much if not more by the opportunity to engage and interact with them.

Roger: I love what you just said in talking about the infinite possibilities and individuals and how when you go to organizations to help them sort of tap into that potential to tap in to define What, what are their, you know, infinite possibilities that you are getting as much out of it as they get out of it.

Kellee: I've come to learn Roger that, uh, not all people who serve in the consulting profession or within, um, organizational. internal consultants possibly think of our role through a servant leadership perspective. And, um, I believe that's where we truly are a gift to our clients when we do come in with a, with a bigger servant heart.

Roger: Yeah, I, I hear you with that one. In my experience in consulting, you, your team members, um, can have a big impact on the quality of work that you do, depending on the perspectives they are bringing to it. And I know I will have chemical reactions. Um. And I've had chemical reactions in the past, uh, when my team members, um, are not approaching it from that servant leadership approach.

Kellee: And if you're familiar with Edgar Schein's work, but, you know, he believes that the client owns the problem and the solution. And I think sometimes that we, as consultants will go into systems that we really are not a part of and try to control things. And that really isn't. Necessarily, our role, our role is to help facilitate to listen and to pay attention and to navigate and to advise, but, but, you know, we really have to help our clients, um, become a part of the transformation effort.

Roger: I so believe what you're saying, uh, to be true. I've found it to be true in my own experience, whether it's consulting, whether it's coaching, uh, the more we try to put ourselves in the middle of that solution. Um, we're creating unsustainable solutions for someone else, like our advice and our expertise, um, in the middle of their solution when they're the experts in their organization or in themselves, um, really, um, That feels like malpractice more than actual help.

And I was watching a recently a Ted talk with Anne Lamont talking about, we should stop, stop letting our help get in the way, uh, and, and, and really love that perspective, but I found that to be so true as well, that with, we honor the experience and the expertise of our clients and our co cheese, and they are the expert in themselves.

And we, our role is to just help facilitate the unlock and the definition to provide that clarity and that path to the next step. That's where we really add value.

Kellee: I couldn't agree more. And I often say if, if you're in this business, For immediate gratification, you're probably in the wrong line of work.

And what I, what I mean by that is, and you probably know this very well, that we are often invited into systems again, that we're not a part of, we're sort of the visitor and we go in and we work with teams and organizational leaders and then we leave and. Again, back to shines, it's the client who owns the problem and the solution and it ultimately is the client who makes the decision, whether they take your advice, your counsel, you give them research, you give them data and there have been situations with, you know, large engagements that I've worked on and I've walked away from and I've been like, I wonder if that really worked out.

Roger: before we hit the record button. You shared a story about coaching Basketball with 12 year olds. Can you share that story again? Because I think it's really a pill applicable to this point

Kellee: Yeah, well, I mentioned to you that I played college basketball. And then when I retired, I, um, decided to volunteer and coach, um, 12 year old girls basketball to give back to the community.

And, um, I wanted to apply philosophically some of the things I was learning as I was going through. My doctoral studies, um, with these, with these young girls and so the girls would play their game over the weekend. And then we would have practice during the week. And I thought, rather than me as the expert, come in and tell them what I saw.

They did well and tell them what I saw. They could improve upon. That I thought it would be more useful for us to sit down collectively as a team, and for me to ask them, what did you think we did well? And what do you think we could do better? And these 12 year old girls, so you think about 12 year old girls are probably 6th, 7th grade, they could articulate very specifically what they did well, where they could make improvements.

And most of the time, Roger, far beyond things that I could even think of. And I found that what they did just in that team setting mirrors my experience within organizational systems and what it translates to is a higher level of, in my, in my experience of engagement, you're engaging them in the process.

They're getting education about the game and, but more importantly, empowerment. You're empowering them to make decisions. And I think higher level of productivity. Um, and I think the same is true within our larger systems. So what we can do at a micro level, we can translate to a macro level.

Roger: I've had that experience both in youth sports and in the conference room and with co cheese.

And what I have found to be true about that, using that process of asking them, Not only does that speak to empowerment, speaks to their agency, they are much more likely to adopt, accept, own those solutions and carry those forward. What I've also found is they're usually better solutions. Not only, not only for their context.

Um, but, but, You know, probably even better solutions than what, you know, I, as the supposed expert could come up with. Um, and so really taking myself out of the center of those solutions and just being the facilitator, being the coach, um, is, is where I can really add value. And, and even more value because I'm not getting in the way of it.

This I think gets us to your superhero power, uh, very clearly of yes. Whether it's artificial intelligence or it's, you know, various, um, organizational systems that are being employed or you're changing people's environments and environments is very much central to, um, to how we react emotionally, how we process, how we store memories place.

It's a very important part there. Um, But I think your superhero power of paying attention really comes into play here because you have to actively choose what you're paying attention to as you're helping your clients. So could you tell us, let's take a step back and tell us a little bit about what, when, when we say your superhero power is to pay attention, what does that mean to you?

Kellee: Yeah, I love that you're asking this question of people because I think it's It's such a curious thing to inquire, right? It's just a great question, and I was asked, um, during COVID, a very similar question, and, uh, what I often like to do is go spend time walking when someone asks me a very thought provoking question, and, and, and allow, um, that quiet time, um, and we can talk a little bit about this as well.

to, to allow things to come to me. Like, what do I really think? What is my superpower? I'm not really, I'm good at asking questions, but I'm never really asked these questions. Right. So, and it kept coming back to me to pay attention. Um, and I'm a good, I'm a great fan of Mary Oliver's work. Um, the great late poet, and she has a lovely poem and, and part of that is to pay attention.

Is our endless and proper work. And I was like, that kind of summarize summarizes what I feel like my work is. Because I'm invited into places and spaces and my job really is to ask questions and be curious and take a look around and, um, hopefully be a good steward and, um, and not really put my Viewpoint, but really just to, um, again, going back to that servant heart and so, uh, I think that's kind of an important thing to pay attention.

And with the, the, the onslaught of technologies, I think sometimes the attention part of it gets lost because we're trying to keep up with the pace of so much and so much noise. And that sometimes slow is good, sometimes slowing down is good, sometimes taking a walk is great.

Roger: Yeah, the, this idea that paying attention is the enduring work, it's also such a gift.

Because how you know, everyone wants to be seen. Everyone wants to be heard. And it kind of reminds me back and, you know, back in high school where, you know, I was always worried about what people were thinking about me, what they thought about how I looked or the things I was saying. And then, you know, later on discovering that.

Everyone else was thinking about themselves and not about anyone else was like, Oh, I spent so much, you know, burned so many calories, um, worrying about what other people were thinking. But the opportunity to shift that focus from self to others, um, always feels like a gift. Uh, when we're, when someone holds space for us, when they pay attention, when they attend to our needs, that always just feels so, so positive, so regenerative and yet, um, that's, that's not easy to do.

So when, when you walk into a situation where, you know, you have to pay attention, is there like a simple framework or a process that you use when you're, when, when, you know, It's time to to do that work.

Kellee: This kind of evolved over the work that I had done for a number of years and and I, um, I imagine many of your listeners are probably familiar with Kurt Levin's work, the father of social psychology, who really looked at, um, the interaction between someone's environment.

And their individuality and the interaction between those. And if you switched environments, you might show up differently. And so I always thought that was kind of an interesting dynamic. And so from that evolved my framework of a model of organizational effectiveness. And it's sort of the interplay between someone's heart.

Who am I? Your, uh, head. What are my unique gifts? Your hands. How do I serve? It's sort of a Venn diagram. And then surrounding that, because we all work and swim within organizational systems, I label that as community. And community comes from the Macmillan and Chavez, um, framework of what they define as community.

And I think this might resonate with you, Roger, having known you, is they have four elements of community. Membership, influence, Fulfillment of needs and emotional connections, and those four things they say need to be present for someone to feel fulfilled within an organizational system. So the interplay of head, heart, hands, and where you defined, you're going to get your membership, your influence, your fulfillment of needs and emotional connections is where organizations can be effective.

And is that easy? No. Right? But, you know, Kurt Levin, much more, um, seasoned than you and I, had studied that. And the interplay between, you know, someone needs to know their individual wants and desires, and they also need to be in a place That honors those and to me, it makes sense for anyone who's worked in a matrix environment and for people listening, who don't understand matrix environment.

It means you could be working on 5 different projects. With 5 different companies, team compositions, and I always found it curious. As I was kind of getting my sea legs early in my career. Why you could work on one team and be the same person with the same wants, needs, desires, skills, and do awesome. Then you could go to another team, same person, wants, needs, desires, talents, and you couldn't do anything right.

And how I always found that curious. I was like, but a lot of it is you just take that same person and you put them in a different environment with a different team composition. And it just changes the dynamic. And so I think that's good understanding for us as organizational leaders or organizational consultants, because oftentimes what we will do with someone who may not be performing is we'll just kick them out of the organizational system rather than recognizing that they just might not be in the right place.

Space and with the right team composition. Does that, does that make sense?

Roger: Oh, I, I think you're, you're describing my career to 18 years of consulting where every three to six months, it's a different organization. I'm sure you, this has helped you inform your, your, your thoughts on this as well, where sometimes, you know, we.

We come in and we do exactly what we hope to do and we're able to deliver value and create great lasting relationships with our clients and in other places It doesn't work out and and I think it is Um, I think it's a combination of environment and context. I think it's also you know, sometimes our our our needs as you were saying of coming in and I want to be a servant leader.

I want to develop trusted advisor relationships. I want to Do these things that give me satisfaction, you know, part of, you know, my purpose of helping people unlock that thing, that's a barrier to achieving their purpose. I'm looking for that in, in so many of the connections, the relationships I have, and yet, you know, part of that context or part of the other person might not be, um, accepting of that in that moment or from me, uh, and that, that's what I have found to be really a, um, that, that barrier.

You know, it's, it's the context, the environment, and then the willingness of the people that I'm working with as to whether or not I am finding a connection between, you know, my heart, my head, my hands, and the context and the environment that I'm working in.

Kellee: Yeah, and I hear it consistently, you know, within people, if they share with me that they're not happy and you drill down a little bit further.

Um, and again, it, um, It rarely comes back that it's the technology rarely comes back. I mean, people may be frustrated. I'm not getting the tools and the resources, or I don't understand the tools and the resources, but it's usually that they don't feel as we've kind of articulated here. I don't feel seen.

I don't feel heard. Um, and just a readjustment of that oftentimes cures it.

Roger: So what does it feel like? When you've been able to apply your superhero power of paying attention and it's had a positive impact on others, what does that feel like for you?

Kellee: It is the most rewarding feeling. I mean, I don't, it's indescribable.

I was recently out at an academic institution working with their senior leadership in Utah, and I had the great joy of getting a campus tour with the president's intern. It And so he was driving me around in a golf court. We had wonderful conversations about a whole lot of different topics, and he took me to their lovely stained glass mural that they have on campus, which is just absolutely beautiful.

He, uh, was an account is an accounting major and, um, the school is a liberal arts, uh, academic. Framework and so I was talking to him about that and I said, well, how do you like, how do you like that? Why'd you choose to come here? And he said, well, I was a little resistant at 1st and he said, I, I had to take this class, uh, where, um, they made me study 1 of the stained glass frames.

Study it and write an entire paper about it. And he said, I'm an accounting major. And he said, I just was like, why am I taking this class? What does this have to do with accounting? And, and I said, well, and what'd you, what'd you think at the end of the, uh, end of the class? And he said, I have to tell you, it was the most transformational learning experience and the most favorite class I've taken.

And I said, what did you learn from that? And he said, you know, There's things we know, and there's things that we don't know.

And I thought that was just so illuminating for me about just life. Right. And that. We, we think we know a lot, um, until we are presented with things that, um, if we open ourselves up to, we just might discover that there's parts of us back to that infinite possibility. Right? There's parts of us that are just waiting to be known.

Roger: So tell me, Kelly, how is your superhero power of paying attention connected with your purpose?

Kellee: Oh my gosh, that's, yeah, I love that, um, to think about that. Um, and I mentioned earlier that sort of the evolution of my interests kind of moved into the consciousness space, which, which I think when I look back at the totality of my career, That really has been something in existence, even from a very young age.

Um, and I became exposed during my doctoral studies to transpersonal psychology and some of the things related to transpersonal psychology, which I think are kind of relevant to purpose and my superpower are, are that the, you know, transpersonal perspective really takes into account all information. And that, um, even the data that we cannot define and even things we don't know that we have words for.

Um, and so I, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Michelangelo quote, where he said David existed the whole time that it was his job to just get rid of the excess Marvel.

There's so much that I'm curious about. Um, and that I know to be true, um, and that what is the famous Einstein quote that I think we spend a lot, a lot of times measuring things that don't matter.

And um, we, there are a lot of things that matter that can't be measured. And I, I enjoy thinking about the things that matter, you know, early, early in my, in my journey. Um, 10 days after I graduated from college, uh, my, my dad passed away and, um, I was a psychology student and, um, had done, thought I knew everything, right?

And then my dad passes away and we had to put together as a family, his memorial service. And my dad had, um, stood up the organizational development and, uh, learning. Center within a large government organization, which still exists today. I'm very proud of that. And because of his level in the government, we had to pull together pretty significant, uh, speakers to come to his memorial service and a few days before he, uh, Before his service, a young woman approached our family and asked if she could speak and my mom said, absolutely.

We'd love to have you speak. And my dad had touched a lot of people in his, uh, in his career, and so the church was very, very full, and the woman was the last person to speak, and she clearly was the only person who was not a professional, uh, speaker, but she said, you know, every morning, Mr. Franklin made sure I had a hot cup of coffee.

And he'd always spend some time talking to me, asking me how my family was and how I was doing, and I'll never forget him. And Roger, out of all of the speakers that day, she was the only person who I remembered what she said. And it really was one of those moments, as a young 22 year old, fresh out of undergrad, I was like, that's it?

That's what it's all about because all of those awards and accolades that my dad strived so hard to get, and I don't mean to diminish those at all. Those all go into a box. It was the people that he impacted the relationships that he made that that really is the imprint and the legacy that you leave.

And so if you think about it as a young 22 year old kind of getting out and getting started. That really has framed, uh, my thinking, my philosophy, and how I've sort of continued to navigate the rest of my career.

Roger: That story is such a powerful reminder of the power of human connection and, and to your superhero power of paying attention to your, I mean, it was clear that your father was paying attention to this individual who in a lot of organizations is overlooked.

I mean, in a lot of organizations, these are the people who come in. after everyone's gone. You don't even get to see these people. Um, and yet, um, how many, how many times do we work with people who we don't, who we don't see, who we don't take the time to make that human connection with? Um, so I love that story.

in the face of all of the achievements, all of the accolades, all of these powerful, well spoken people coming up and, and, you know, celebrating the life and contributions of your father. Um, this, this idea of this example of the Maya Angelou quote of, well, remember what What you said, but they'll remember how, how you made them feel.

Um, yeah, that that's a shining example of that. And, and, and your dad is, is such a role model, uh, for organizations, uh, and for leaders and for people in organizations to remember the impact that we have and really effectiveness in that context of working together is probably based on our relationships and human connection and not the achievements or accolades.

Kellee: The co founder of Intel said, you have to connect people's heads with their hearts in order for their feet to walk. And, um, I know that I've worked in a lot of systems that focus so heavily on the head and they forget a lot about the heart. And I can tell you that if you don't involve the heart, those feet are not going anywhere.

And that's what's true of. personal life can be applied to business life. So

Roger: yeah, earlier in my career, when I was focused on change management, a lot of the work seemed to be focused on, you know, boots and butts. Like, how do we get the people to go in the right direction? And how do we get their, you know, their, their butts in the right place to do the work?

Um, and it wasn't focused on head and heart and, you know, the path. The path to boots and butts comes through the head and the heart. Um, I mean, literally, that makes sense. But, uh, but I think also in our experience, we found that to be true. And, you know, uh, the, the ignore the heart at your peril. Like, if we're not bringing, People's hearts along.

That's it's an uphill journey. For sure.

Kellee: People often ask me about leadership and differentiating yourself and and those sorts of things. And what I know to be true is the best differentiator is showing up. And listening and attending to people. Technology is going to continue to change and evolve and impact our systems.

We are going to need organizational leaders that understand people more than ever. We, you know, need great technologists. But the technology is going to impact human systems. And I'm always cognizant. Whether I'm teaching graduate students or whether I'm working with clients to really reference it as human systems, and that's just as a reminder that our organizations and our companies are comprised of humans,

Roger: the people side feels.

At times messy, but I think it's messy when we don't spend the time to actually understand. Individuals, um, and we'll talk about, you know, as individuals as humans were messy. Um. Yes, and no. When we spend time contemplating that messiness, um, there are some things that we could absolutely connect with one another at, at that, at that heart level.

Um, that makes a little bit more sense. of, of that messiness. And then when we don't, when we don't spend time doing that, and then we see organizations, you know, create friction. Well, it's not organizations. It's people, you know, it's people who haven't been brought along that are either acting in ways or not or acting, not acting, um, that creates organizational friction.

Kellee: I agree. I have so many stories, so you have to forgive me, but I mentioned to you the big engagement I did with the company that was moving from an existing building to a brand new active workspace. I facilitated the team meeting and of course, this is all being done virtually because we're all in different locations.

Right? And so I told the team, I said, you know, I'm going to facilitate the meeting and then at the end of the meeting, I just have a few reflections I'd like to share with you. And so everyone I think was like, oh, my gosh, what's happening? What reflections could be? So I won't share all the reflections, but my final reflection was, I was on a recent plane, plane trip and I was sitting next to a gentleman.

Epidemiologist from NIH. I said, how cool is that? I said, he worked with, uh, with one of the doctors that you all would be familiar with that helped with the COVID 19 stuff. And they were like, oh, that's cool. And I said, yeah. And I said, he told me this very interesting story about being on a plane that got stuck on a tarmac.

For several hours, and that, you know, people get a little anxious and upset about being stuck on a tarmac. And he said that the flight attendant, every 10 minutes or 15 minutes would come on the PA and say, you know, give an update and at the end of the announcement would say, love you mean it. And I said, here is this seasoned epidemiologist.

And he said, you know, at first. I was a little uncomfortable with this male flight attendant saying, love you, mean it. He said, but you know, he said it became quite comforting to know that every 10 or 15 minutes that we were going to get this announcement and that at the end of the announcement that this guy was going to say, love you, mean it.

And he said, And then it was amazing. He said this 300 plus plane packed full of irritated and frustrated people, which could have been very chaotic, was just calm and everyone was getting along and, and he said, it was the most amazing thing I'd ever seen. So I concluded my conversation with the team to say, you know, I want you all to take care of each other and I want you to take care of yourself.

I want you to have a good weekend. And I love you and I mean it.

And I just think in organizational systems and I, you know, I'm not the expert on any of this stuff, Roger. I do know that sometimes people just need to be told that they're loved and that you mean it.

Roger: Yes, that, um, that's so powerful. I think the word love, um, is not used enough. In our work relationships at all, and I think obviously it's clear you bring love into the work that you do and how you attend to your the leaders and the coaches and the teams that you work with, and I think it's apparent in in, um, the office when we're working with people, when people are bringing a sense of love to the work to the relationships, um, and yet we don't acknowledge that.

And that's, that's an interesting contrast that if we're paying attention to it, we can see it everywhere. Um, but we don't call it what it is. I love that idea of labeling it. And then that, that extra kicker. Of mean

Kellee: it, yeah,

Roger: sort of the love. You probably like snaps people do attention and the mean, it just seals the deal.

So I also love that you have been paying attention to my needs enough to know that I was going to ask, what do you know to be true? And so you just went and answered it anyway, without asking, without waiting for me to ask it. So I loved that. Um, But what have you believed early on about paying attention that you've come to learn is not true?

Kellee: Technology is never going to solve what ills the human heart.

It's just not, and again, I'm a big proponent of technology. I've worked with some of the, I think, you know, my background is in intelligence and defense, so I don't want people to walk away and say, oh, she's just a big softy, you know, because I am, but I have worked, I have, and I think, you know, this, I have worked with, you know, some of the, um, you know, highest levels of our government, and, um, some of the most sophisticated technologies that are out there, and I'm a big, um, Fan of all of those and even in those organizations, some of the topics that we've addressed today.

Um, those technologies have so many potential, but unless you attend to the people that comprise the systems, um, you know, we're just, um, they're just never gonna be what they are and that's what I know to be true. We're spiritual beings living in a human experience, right? And I, that is what I believe to be true, right?

We're really spiritual beings that are just here for a brief moment. And, um, I think if we peel the layers back, we can make that connection with each other.

Roger: Before we wrap up, we have to do the lightning round. Are you ready?

Kellee: I'm ready for you, Roger.

Roger: Okay. Fill in the blank. Paying attention is? Embracing what is.

Who in your life pays attention for you? God. Is there a practice or routine that helps you grow, nurture, or renew your ability to pay attention?

Kellee: Being with nature.

Roger: Is there a book or movie you recently consumed that you would recommend that has paying attention as a theme?

Kellee: Mind of the Leader.

Roger: What is the one thing that gets in your way of paying attention?

Kellee: Technology.

Roger: What word or phrase describes what paying attention feels like when it's had a positive impact?

Kellee: Joy.

Roger: There's something really powerful in three little letters. If a listener wanted to ask you a question or follow you, where would you want to point them to?

Kellee: LinkedIn.

Roger: Well, Kelly Franklin, oh my goodness.

This has been such a wonderful conversation. It's great to get to know you better. And I love how you went straight into, um, this conversation about really about connecting hearts and minds through the work that we do in situations where. We're probably asked to come in and focus on something very different than connecting the hearts and minds.

And I can tell that your superhero power of paying attention helps you. Really focus on the things that matter and the other things that are just kind of noise and the work that you do with either individuals or with teams is really centered around that connection between head and heart. And as you said, hands.

Um, so I, I, it's again, just such a privilege to be part of this conversation and get to know you better and to see that connection and how important this is to you. So thank you for taking the time to be here.

Kellee: It's a pleasure to be with you, Roger. I look forward and I appreciate all your good work that you're doing, making a difference.

Roger: Thank you. Okay. Love you. Mean it. Mean it, right? Yeah. Right.

Thank you, Kelly. This has been a lovely conversation. I love Kelly's stories that highlight the impact of paying attention to the things that matter. From people who spoke at Kelly's dad's funeral to the flight attendant who did something a little out of the ordinary to tell people that someone actually cared for them.

During a frustrating moment, the reflection question I'm asking myself is where can I pay just 10 percent more attention to the people I'm talking with? And does that look like 10 percent more attention or just 10 percent less distraction? What do you know to be true is a three blue pens production and I'm your host Roger Kastner.

We're recording on the ancestral lands of the Duwamish and Suquamish people. To discover the ancestral lands of the indigenous people whose land you may be on, you can go to native lands. ca. Be well, my friends, and of course, love you. Mean it.